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No, that's not what I said at all. I think someone could believe that they're not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist while still being unconsciously comp

No, that's not what I said at all. I think someone could believe that they're not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist while still being unconsciously complacent, ignorant, or subtly enabling of those attitudes in themselves and others. I can see how a psychedelic trip could show someone a different perspective, causing them to change their beliefs and behavior in significant ways.

basil-rash 3y ago
That may be true, but if someone is to make a claim that it is “great for showing hatred…”, I think more proof should be offered than some other person saying “I could see how…”.
- fasterik 3y ago
  I don't think I understand your argument. Your claim was that if someone wasn't already racist and xenophobic, then their epiphanies about that subject on psychedelics is irrelevant. However, a very common experience people have on psychedelics is the feeling that everything, including the entirety of humanity, is part of the same thing, and that anything other than love for all of it comes from an artificially limited perspective. I think that's extremely relevant to having a different perspective on racism and xenophobia and their absurdity, even if the person wasn't racist and xenophobic going in.
  - basil-rash 3y ago
    If someone who wasn’t racist says they took LSD and found themselves one with all races, and ended up continuing to not be racist, that doesn’t tell me in any way that LSD is “great” for dismantling racism. All I’m saying is that if someone is to make extraordinary claims “this drug is great against racism”, they should be able to back it up with more than “well I wasn’t racist before, and I’m still not, and besides we’re all one so why would someone else be?”
    - fasterik 3y ago
      You should go back and re-read gavinray's post. I don't think they were making a claim anywhere near as strong as the claim that LSD is great for dismantling racism.
      - basil-rash 3y ago
        > Particularly the psychedelic experience is great for sparking realizations that things like hate, xenophobia, racism, etc. are all so absurd and non-productive. I’m well aware of the claim. I’m the one who protested it to begin with. And I still have found no evidence that the parent hadn’t realized any of those beforehand.
        fasterik 3y ago
        I don't think that's a charitable interpretation of what they said, and not how I interpreted it, but ok. It seems like I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
        basil-rash 3y ago
        I just want evidence for the claim, but nobody wants to provide it, or even consider that requesting evidence is a valid response. This is the exact kind of behavior that gets the psychs-solve-everything crowd dismissed.
        fasterik 3y ago
        If you Ctrl+F for my other responses in the thread, you'll see that I'm not advocating for psychs-solve-everything. I think a reasonable interpretation is that gavinray was giving their personal experience, not making a sweeping scientific claim. It would be like if I read a book that gave me a perspective on racism I had never thought of before, and I said "this book is great at showing you how racism is absurd!" It's not the kind of claim you would jump on and ask for a scientific study. In general, it's a good idea to take the most charitable version of what someone says, because people aren't always perfectly precise in their language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

basil-rash 3y ago

That may be true, but if someone is to make a claim that it is “great for showing hatred…”, I think more proof should be offered than some other person saying “I could see how…”.

fasterik 3y ago
I don't think I understand your argument. Your claim was that if someone wasn't already racist and xenophobic, then their epiphanies about that subject on psychedelics is irrelevant. However, a very common experience people have on psychedelics is the feeling that everything, including the entirety of humanity, is part of the same thing, and that anything other than love for all of it comes from an artificially limited perspective. I think that's extremely relevant to having a different perspective on racism and xenophobia and their absurdity, even if the person wasn't racist and xenophobic going in.
- basil-rash 3y ago
  If someone who wasn’t racist says they took LSD and found themselves one with all races, and ended up continuing to not be racist, that doesn’t tell me in any way that LSD is “great” for dismantling racism. All I’m saying is that if someone is to make extraordinary claims “this drug is great against racism”, they should be able to back it up with more than “well I wasn’t racist before, and I’m still not, and besides we’re all one so why would someone else be?”
  - fasterik 3y ago
    You should go back and re-read gavinray's post. I don't think they were making a claim anywhere near as strong as the claim that LSD is great for dismantling racism.
    - basil-rash 3y ago
      > Particularly the psychedelic experience is great for sparking realizations that things like hate, xenophobia, racism, etc. are all so absurd and non-productive. I’m well aware of the claim. I’m the one who protested it to begin with. And I still have found no evidence that the parent hadn’t realized any of those beforehand.
      - fasterik 3y ago
        I don't think that's a charitable interpretation of what they said, and not how I interpreted it, but ok. It seems like I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
        basil-rash 3y ago
        I just want evidence for the claim, but nobody wants to provide it, or even consider that requesting evidence is a valid response. This is the exact kind of behavior that gets the psychs-solve-everything crowd dismissed.
        fasterik 3y ago
        If you Ctrl+F for my other responses in the thread, you'll see that I'm not advocating for psychs-solve-everything. I think a reasonable interpretation is that gavinray was giving their personal experience, not making a sweeping scientific claim. It would be like if I read a book that gave me a perspective on racism I had never thought of before, and I said "this book is great at showing you how racism is absurd!" It's not the kind of claim you would jump on and ask for a scientific study. In general, it's a good idea to take the most charitable version of what someone says, because people aren't always perfectly precise in their language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity