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I don't think that's true. Even if someone doesn't explicitly hold those views, one can still be complacent, ignorant, or subtly enabling of them. Seeing things

I don't think that's true. Even if someone doesn't explicitly hold those views, one can still be complacent, ignorant, or subtly enabling of them. Seeing things from a different perspective can provide insight into how relevant certain ideas are to the larger picture of humanity.

basil-rash 3y ago
You’re saying the mindset one would have going into it is one of “I’m not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist, but I can see how those are all logical and productive things to be”? I don’t believe that mindset exists.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  I think that’s exactly the mindset of most people because they don’t think they’re being racist, xenophobic, etc. If someone were to grow up in an economy built on coal mining with 13 year old miners, and you’re really effective at organizing 13 year old coal miners, then you’re gonna be very productive. Even though everything that you’re doing is existentially bad for everybody, they are all ignorant of it’s harms. So even if temporally coal mining with miners might be the only thing that anyone is aware of to do that is “productive.” You can make no “mistakes” and still lose just from ignorance
  - basil-rash 3y ago
    Your anecdote does nothing to address the root complaint; which is that if one is to make extraordinary claims (LSD is “great for” dismantling hated, etc.), they should have some actual extraordinary experience to support it. Something like a personal experience. Otherwise it’s just more “LSD is so good, it solved problems I didn’t even have” nonsense.
- fasterik 3y ago
  No, that's not what I said at all. I think someone could believe that they're not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist while still being unconsciously complacent, ignorant, or subtly enabling of those attitudes in themselves and others. I can see how a psychedelic trip could show someone a different perspective, causing them to change their beliefs and behavior in significant ways.
  - basil-rash 3y ago
    That may be true, but if someone is to make a claim that it is “great for showing hatred…”, I think more proof should be offered than some other person saying “I could see how…”.
    - fasterik 3y ago
      I don't think I understand your argument. Your claim was that if someone wasn't already racist and xenophobic, then their epiphanies about that subject on psychedelics is irrelevant. However, a very common experience people have on psychedelics is the feeling that everything, including the entirety of humanity, is part of the same thing, and that anything other than love for all of it comes from an artificially limited perspective. I think that's extremely relevant to having a different perspective on racism and xenophobia and their absurdity, even if the person wasn't racist and xenophobic going in.
      - basil-rash 3y ago
        If someone who wasn’t racist says they took LSD and found themselves one with all races, and ended up continuing to not be racist, that doesn’t tell me in any way that LSD is “great” for dismantling racism. All I’m saying is that if someone is to make extraordinary claims “this drug is great against racism”, they should be able to back it up with more than “well I wasn’t racist before, and I’m still not, and besides we’re all one so why would someone else be?”
        fasterik 3y ago
        You should go back and re-read gavinray's post. I don't think they were making a claim anywhere near as strong as the claim that LSD is great for dismantling racism.
        basil-rash 3y ago
        > Particularly the psychedelic experience is great for sparking realizations that things like hate, xenophobia, racism, etc. are all so absurd and non-productive. I’m well aware of the claim. I’m the one who protested it to begin with. And I still have found no evidence that the parent hadn’t realized any of those beforehand.

basil-rash 3y ago

You’re saying the mindset one would have going into it is one of “I’m not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist, but I can see how those are all logical and productive things to be”? I don’t believe that mindset exists.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago
I think that’s exactly the mindset of most people because they don’t think they’re being racist, xenophobic, etc. If someone were to grow up in an economy built on coal mining with 13 year old miners, and you’re really effective at organizing 13 year old coal miners, then you’re gonna be very productive. Even though everything that you’re doing is existentially bad for everybody, they are all ignorant of it’s harms. So even if temporally coal mining with miners might be the only thing that anyone is aware of to do that is “productive.” You can make no “mistakes” and still lose just from ignorance
- basil-rash 3y ago
  Your anecdote does nothing to address the root complaint; which is that if one is to make extraordinary claims (LSD is “great for” dismantling hated, etc.), they should have some actual extraordinary experience to support it. Something like a personal experience. Otherwise it’s just more “LSD is so good, it solved problems I didn’t even have” nonsense.
fasterik 3y ago
No, that's not what I said at all. I think someone could believe that they're not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist while still being unconsciously complacent, ignorant, or subtly enabling of those attitudes in themselves and others. I can see how a psychedelic trip could show someone a different perspective, causing them to change their beliefs and behavior in significant ways.
- basil-rash 3y ago
  That may be true, but if someone is to make a claim that it is “great for showing hatred…”, I think more proof should be offered than some other person saying “I could see how…”.
  - fasterik 3y ago
    I don't think I understand your argument. Your claim was that if someone wasn't already racist and xenophobic, then their epiphanies about that subject on psychedelics is irrelevant. However, a very common experience people have on psychedelics is the feeling that everything, including the entirety of humanity, is part of the same thing, and that anything other than love for all of it comes from an artificially limited perspective. I think that's extremely relevant to having a different perspective on racism and xenophobia and their absurdity, even if the person wasn't racist and xenophobic going in.
    - basil-rash 3y ago
      If someone who wasn’t racist says they took LSD and found themselves one with all races, and ended up continuing to not be racist, that doesn’t tell me in any way that LSD is “great” for dismantling racism. All I’m saying is that if someone is to make extraordinary claims “this drug is great against racism”, they should be able to back it up with more than “well I wasn’t racist before, and I’m still not, and besides we’re all one so why would someone else be?”
      - fasterik 3y ago
        You should go back and re-read gavinray's post. I don't think they were making a claim anywhere near as strong as the claim that LSD is great for dismantling racism.
        basil-rash 3y ago
        > Particularly the psychedelic experience is great for sparking realizations that things like hate, xenophobia, racism, etc. are all so absurd and non-productive. I’m well aware of the claim. I’m the one who protested it to begin with. And I still have found no evidence that the parent hadn’t realized any of those beforehand.