5 ms·

Were you racist, xenophobic, and hateful before? If not, your realizations about their productivity aren’t particularly relevant.

fasterik 3y ago
I don't think that's true. Even if someone doesn't explicitly hold those views, one can still be complacent, ignorant, or subtly enabling of them. Seeing things from a different perspective can provide insight into how relevant certain ideas are to the larger picture of humanity.
- basil-rash 3y ago
  You’re saying the mindset one would have going into it is one of “I’m not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist, but I can see how those are all logical and productive things to be”? I don’t believe that mindset exists.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    I think that’s exactly the mindset of most people because they don’t think they’re being racist, xenophobic, etc. If someone were to grow up in an economy built on coal mining with 13 year old miners, and you’re really effective at organizing 13 year old coal miners, then you’re gonna be very productive. Even though everything that you’re doing is existentially bad for everybody, they are all ignorant of it’s harms. So even if temporally coal mining with miners might be the only thing that anyone is aware of to do that is “productive.” You can make no “mistakes” and still lose just from ignorance
    - basil-rash 3y ago
      Your anecdote does nothing to address the root complaint; which is that if one is to make extraordinary claims (LSD is “great for” dismantling hated, etc.), they should have some actual extraordinary experience to support it. Something like a personal experience. Otherwise it’s just more “LSD is so good, it solved problems I didn’t even have” nonsense.
  - fasterik 3y ago
    No, that's not what I said at all. I think someone could believe that they're not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist while still being unconsciously complacent, ignorant, or subtly enabling of those attitudes in themselves and others. I can see how a psychedelic trip could show someone a different perspective, causing them to change their beliefs and behavior in significant ways.
    - basil-rash 3y ago
      That may be true, but if someone is to make a claim that it is “great for showing hatred…”, I think more proof should be offered than some other person saying “I could see how…”.
      - fasterik 3y ago
        I don't think I understand your argument. Your claim was that if someone wasn't already racist and xenophobic, then their epiphanies about that subject on psychedelics is irrelevant. However, a very common experience people have on psychedelics is the feeling that everything, including the entirety of humanity, is part of the same thing, and that anything other than love for all of it comes from an artificially limited perspective. I think that's extremely relevant to having a different perspective on racism and xenophobia and their absurdity, even if the person wasn't racist and xenophobic going in.
        basil-rash 3y ago
        If someone who wasn’t racist says they took LSD and found themselves one with all races, and ended up continuing to not be racist, that doesn’t tell me in any way that LSD is “great” for dismantling racism. All I’m saying is that if someone is to make extraordinary claims “this drug is great against racism”, they should be able to back it up with more than “well I wasn’t racist before, and I’m still not, and besides we’re all one so why would someone else be?”
        fasterik 3y ago
mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
I've personally seen someone go from racist, xenophobic and hateful to not in the space of a single trip.
- nerbert 3y ago
  Wow, I'd love to witness something like that one day. My circle doesn't include a lot of these people, and maybe that in itself is part of the more general problem.
- basil-rash 3y ago
  And if they wanted to talk about it, I’d listen. Where I protest is when people make grandiose claims like “this solved so many problems for me, it even solved problems that I didn’t have!”, which only serve to perpetuate the modern hippie-dippie stereotype.
- fullshark 3y ago
  How would you even see that? Can you describe in more detail?
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    We were both tripping. Fairly recent acquaintances, I had no idea about his views, until it came up during conversation. We ended up talking about it for several hours. I stayed non-judgemental and just kept probing with questions about why he feels this way. Eventually he realised he was really just angry about the failures in his own life and the local community he was from. He'd picked up a bad media diet(neocon youtube...) and found some kind of relief I suppose in directing his anger at others. There was a lot of crying. He even thanked me the next day. I think that's about as detailed as I can get without revealing private information. It was a remarkable experience and fundamentally changed the way I think about the human mind, extreme political views, political dialogue, and most of all how therapy should work.
- realanswe91 3y ago
  Transorbital lobotomy would achieve that result too.
gavinray 3y ago
I wasn't racist or xenophobic, but I had a lot of spite and a fairly negative world-view due to experiences I had growing up. I had a chip on my shoulder, so to speak.

fasterik 3y ago

I don't think that's true. Even if someone doesn't explicitly hold those views, one can still be complacent, ignorant, or subtly enabling of them. Seeing things from a different perspective can provide insight into how relevant certain ideas are to the larger picture of humanity.

basil-rash 3y ago
You’re saying the mindset one would have going into it is one of “I’m not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist, but I can see how those are all logical and productive things to be”? I don’t believe that mindset exists.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  I think that’s exactly the mindset of most people because they don’t think they’re being racist, xenophobic, etc. If someone were to grow up in an economy built on coal mining with 13 year old miners, and you’re really effective at organizing 13 year old coal miners, then you’re gonna be very productive. Even though everything that you’re doing is existentially bad for everybody, they are all ignorant of it’s harms. So even if temporally coal mining with miners might be the only thing that anyone is aware of to do that is “productive.” You can make no “mistakes” and still lose just from ignorance
  - basil-rash 3y ago
    Your anecdote does nothing to address the root complaint; which is that if one is to make extraordinary claims (LSD is “great for” dismantling hated, etc.), they should have some actual extraordinary experience to support it. Something like a personal experience. Otherwise it’s just more “LSD is so good, it solved problems I didn’t even have” nonsense.
- fasterik 3y ago
  No, that's not what I said at all. I think someone could believe that they're not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist while still being unconsciously complacent, ignorant, or subtly enabling of those attitudes in themselves and others. I can see how a psychedelic trip could show someone a different perspective, causing them to change their beliefs and behavior in significant ways.
  - basil-rash 3y ago
    That may be true, but if someone is to make a claim that it is “great for showing hatred…”, I think more proof should be offered than some other person saying “I could see how…”.
    - fasterik 3y ago
      I don't think I understand your argument. Your claim was that if someone wasn't already racist and xenophobic, then their epiphanies about that subject on psychedelics is irrelevant. However, a very common experience people have on psychedelics is the feeling that everything, including the entirety of humanity, is part of the same thing, and that anything other than love for all of it comes from an artificially limited perspective. I think that's extremely relevant to having a different perspective on racism and xenophobia and their absurdity, even if the person wasn't racist and xenophobic going in.
      - basil-rash 3y ago
        If someone who wasn’t racist says they took LSD and found themselves one with all races, and ended up continuing to not be racist, that doesn’t tell me in any way that LSD is “great” for dismantling racism. All I’m saying is that if someone is to make extraordinary claims “this drug is great against racism”, they should be able to back it up with more than “well I wasn’t racist before, and I’m still not, and besides we’re all one so why would someone else be?”
        fasterik 3y ago

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago

I've personally seen someone go from racist, xenophobic and hateful to not in the space of a single trip.

nerbert 3y ago
Wow, I'd love to witness something like that one day. My circle doesn't include a lot of these people, and maybe that in itself is part of the more general problem.
basil-rash 3y ago
And if they wanted to talk about it, I’d listen. Where I protest is when people make grandiose claims like “this solved so many problems for me, it even solved problems that I didn’t have!”, which only serve to perpetuate the modern hippie-dippie stereotype.
fullshark 3y ago
How would you even see that? Can you describe in more detail?
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  We were both tripping. Fairly recent acquaintances, I had no idea about his views, until it came up during conversation. We ended up talking about it for several hours. I stayed non-judgemental and just kept probing with questions about why he feels this way. Eventually he realised he was really just angry about the failures in his own life and the local community he was from. He'd picked up a bad media diet(neocon youtube...) and found some kind of relief I suppose in directing his anger at others. There was a lot of crying. He even thanked me the next day. I think that's about as detailed as I can get without revealing private information. It was a remarkable experience and fundamentally changed the way I think about the human mind, extreme political views, political dialogue, and most of all how therapy should work.
realanswe91 3y ago
Transorbital lobotomy would achieve that result too.

gavinray 3y ago

I wasn't racist or xenophobic, but I had a lot of spite and a fairly negative world-view due to experiences I had growing up. I had a chip on my shoulder, so to speak.