7 ms·

Electric buses withdrawn in south London after fire

46 points by antongribok 3y ago

verisimi 3y ago
Why the big fuss? Fires happen occasionally. Is there something about the fire that was avoidable? There are really no details given - a real non-story. Perhaps this part of a PR campaign to signal how government takes this sort of thing very seriously?
- xeromal 3y ago
  Your second point is probably the correct point, but hopefully we find out more with time. Battery fires are actually very hard to tackle so my guess is that these busses were built to avoid catching on fire as much as possible so when one does happen, they need to investigate to make sure there isn't a major design flaw.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  It seems to be part of the current "culture war" in Britain — at least judging by the promoted Facebook posts I see. Over half of London's buses are electric (11%) or hybrid (44%) so it's not surprising that fires are now affecting these.
  - graemep 3y ago
    Promoted FB posts are a very bad measure of what is happening. They are designed to provoke people and get reactions - it is all about engagement. I do not know what the motive is (some way of making money no doubt) but it is clear to me that these are mostly just trying to get comments and reactions. I strongly suspect a lot of what I see on FB is not even human written - lots of jokes that do not quite make sense, minor variations on things I have seen before that also do not quire make sense.
    - Symbiote 3y ago
      There's also reporting like "Officials today launched an investigation after one of Sadiq Khan's electric buses exploded during today's rush hour". [1] "A huge blast ripped off the back of an Optare Metrodecker 1050 bus"... yet the picture shows the back of the bus is intact. [2] Daily Mail nonsense like this was enough to influence the Uxbridge byelection (over LTNs), but I'll admit I'm too far away from Britain to know the situation. [1] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12950765/London-electric-double-decker-bus-fire-Wimbledon.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12950765/London-ele... [2] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12955781/Wimbledon-bus-fire-TfL-electric-buses-service.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12955781/Wimbledon-...
- rsynnott 3y ago
  It seems like a _bit_ of a non-story, absent any other info; bus fires are more common than you might think.
- walthamstow 3y ago
  This article is in the BBC's local news section for London. It's a run-of-the-mill public transport local news story. It's not national news. Why it has been posted here, I don't know.
  - antongribok 3y ago
    I posted this and can answer your question. I don't live in UK, and don't generally read the local news section of BBC, so this was displayed on the side when I was reading a story about the volcanic activity in Iceland. I clicked on the story, because it was about electric busses, a subject I'm interested in, since we don't have any where I live. After clicking on the story, I was a bit disappointed with the lack of detail. I decided to post here, because I figured if it got any traction, someone on here would post a bit more detail. The top comment on here currently is exactly what I was hoping to see, and I'm glad I posted the story.
- vidarh 3y ago
  They've withdrawn the electric buses on one specific route, which a later paragraph suggests is a specific type, while figuring out if there's a specific issue. It's posted in a regional sub-section for London rather than in their national news. That doesn't sound like a big fuss to me.
CraigJPerry 3y ago
I saw this on the BBC the other day, it made me go look up how many bus fires there are. 242 over the past couple of years (although it seems these are mostly diesel or hybrid rather than battery), there’s reasonable detail in the summaries further down the page by cause: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-into-bus-fires-reported-to-dvsa-from-2020-to-2022/investigation-into-bus-fires-reported-to-dvsa-from-2020-to-2022#reported-bus-fires https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-int... I couldn’t find a way to estimate fires per miles driven. It also doesn’t include all bus fires, only those reported to the DVSA. London Fire Brigade reports a bunch more in their publication.
- a1o 3y ago
  It would be interesting to see if there was some weighted way to compare bus fires in non-electric ones vs electric ones. To check if either have bigger probability for the fire being a bigger issue.
- 4wsn 3y ago
  I don't really see a link between electric bus fires and diesel fires. The safety issue is that electric vehicle fires are far more difficult to control than their combustion counterparts. "Electric Vehicle Fire" by "South Metro Fire Rescue Centennial, Colorado" https://youtu.be/itGeAq9rBeY https://youtu.be/itGeAq9rBeY
AtlasBarfed 3y ago
What was the chemistry of the battery? I'm guessing it wasn't LFP, but then again I've heard that LFP isn't quite as fire bulletproof as it was advertised.
- hgomersall 3y ago
  Where have you heard that? I've seen videos of people actually sinking axes into LFP cells which just vent a bit compared to say NMC which burst into flames.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  I have never heard that LFP would be fire safe. Just safer compared to other lithium cell types.
  - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
    Correct. That energy stored in the battery needs to go somewhere. Failing fully charged LFP is no less dangerous than any other chemistry.
    - ianburrell 3y ago
      The electrolyte in lithium ion batteries is very flammable. It combusts on contact to air which is why batteries if punctured. LiFePO4 batteries don't have super flammable electrolyte; they can burn but not easily and violently.
    - avianlyric 3y ago
      It’s is less dangerous, because LFP has lower energy density that other lithium chemistries so which means either less energy to dissipate per kg of battery, or more surface area to dissipate the energy per joule. Also LFPs don’t contain components with negative temperature coefficients of resistance (I.e. stuff that gets more conducive as it heats up), which reduces the risk of thermal runaway because LFPs increase their resistance as they get hot, reducing their max output power. Rather other chemistries that reduce resistance as they get hot, increasing their output power.
christkv 3y ago
Oslo in Norway had massive problems due to the cold affecting the amount of charge the buses would hold as well as the charge speed leaving them unable to recharge them fully over night.
- Phlarp 3y ago
  A universal problem for all EVs in cold climates
- rightbyte 3y ago
  The temperature does not affect to charge stored in the batteries, right? However, you have to use the battery to heat itself as well as heat the bus (unless you got diesel heater or something for the cabin).
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    It’s pretty well known (in industries that use batteries) that temperature affects the capacity of batteries.
  - pxeboot 3y ago
    Batteries produce electricity through a chemical reaction. When it is colder, that reaction creates less electricity. If you fully charge a battery, freeze it, then warm it back up, it will still be close to fully charged.
  - avianlyric 3y ago
    It’ll impact the usable charge because the colder temps will decrease the ability of the battery to produce high currents. Effectively setting the floor for a “useful” charge level higher. Below that useful level, current supply is too low to power whatever it is you’re powering.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Oslo can't have been surprised by the existence of cold weather. Did they not contemplate any countermeasures, like heaters at the charging location or better insulating the batteries so the heat from discharging them and then recharging through regenerative braking keeps them warmer?
Proven 3y ago
[dead]
nbarg 3y ago
[flagged]
- vidarh 3y ago
  How do you imagine this stops public transportation on that route (hint: it hasn't). (it's also a route that snakes its way through an area where you almost at no point will be more than maybe ~10 minutes walk from a train, underground or tram stop, even if this bus route somehow wasn't running)
rokkitmensch 3y ago
Tail risk is simply outright difficult to get through folks' head.
ilikeitdark 3y ago
We have had quite a few "unexplained" electric and hybrid bus fires here in Barcelona the last few years.
panick21_ 3y ago
We had electric buses for many, many decades. They are called trolley buses and they are awesome. Why they see so little use is crazy to me. All these low carbon plans but instead of just investing in infrastructure, they invest in all these fancy new technologies that really aren't an advantage.

46 points by antongribok 3y ago

Why the big fuss? Fires happen occasionally. Is there something about the fire that was avoidable? There are really no details given - a real non-story. Perhaps this part of a PR campaign to signal how government takes this sort of thing very seriously?

xeromal 3y ago
Your second point is probably the correct point, but hopefully we find out more with time. Battery fires are actually very hard to tackle so my guess is that these busses were built to avoid catching on fire as much as possible so when one does happen, they need to investigate to make sure there isn't a major design flaw.
Symbiote 3y ago
It seems to be part of the current "culture war" in Britain — at least judging by the promoted Facebook posts I see. Over half of London's buses are electric (11%) or hybrid (44%) so it's not surprising that fires are now affecting these.
- graemep 3y ago
  Promoted FB posts are a very bad measure of what is happening. They are designed to provoke people and get reactions - it is all about engagement. I do not know what the motive is (some way of making money no doubt) but it is clear to me that these are mostly just trying to get comments and reactions. I strongly suspect a lot of what I see on FB is not even human written - lots of jokes that do not quite make sense, minor variations on things I have seen before that also do not quire make sense.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    There's also reporting like "Officials today launched an investigation after one of Sadiq Khan's electric buses exploded during today's rush hour". [1] "A huge blast ripped off the back of an Optare Metrodecker 1050 bus"... yet the picture shows the back of the bus is intact. [2] Daily Mail nonsense like this was enough to influence the Uxbridge byelection (over LTNs), but I'll admit I'm too far away from Britain to know the situation. [1] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12950765/London-electric-double-decker-bus-fire-Wimbledon.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12950765/London-ele... [2] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12955781/Wimbledon-bus-fire-TfL-electric-buses-service.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12955781/Wimbledon-...
rsynnott 3y ago
It seems like a _bit_ of a non-story, absent any other info; bus fires are more common than you might think.
walthamstow 3y ago
This article is in the BBC's local news section for London. It's a run-of-the-mill public transport local news story. It's not national news. Why it has been posted here, I don't know.
- antongribok 3y ago
  I posted this and can answer your question. I don't live in UK, and don't generally read the local news section of BBC, so this was displayed on the side when I was reading a story about the volcanic activity in Iceland. I clicked on the story, because it was about electric busses, a subject I'm interested in, since we don't have any where I live. After clicking on the story, I was a bit disappointed with the lack of detail. I decided to post here, because I figured if it got any traction, someone on here would post a bit more detail. The top comment on here currently is exactly what I was hoping to see, and I'm glad I posted the story.
vidarh 3y ago
They've withdrawn the electric buses on one specific route, which a later paragraph suggests is a specific type, while figuring out if there's a specific issue. It's posted in a regional sub-section for London rather than in their national news. That doesn't sound like a big fuss to me.

CraigJPerry 3y ago

I saw this on the BBC the other day, it made me go look up how many bus fires there are. 242 over the past couple of years (although it seems these are mostly diesel or hybrid rather than battery), there’s reasonable detail in the summaries further down the page by cause: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-into-bus-fires-reported-to-dvsa-from-2020-to-2022/investigation-into-bus-fires-reported-to-dvsa-from-2020-to-2022#reported-bus-fires https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-int... I couldn’t find a way to estimate fires per miles driven. It also doesn’t include all bus fires, only those reported to the DVSA. London Fire Brigade reports a bunch more in their publication.

a1o 3y ago
It would be interesting to see if there was some weighted way to compare bus fires in non-electric ones vs electric ones. To check if either have bigger probability for the fire being a bigger issue.
4wsn 3y ago
I don't really see a link between electric bus fires and diesel fires. The safety issue is that electric vehicle fires are far more difficult to control than their combustion counterparts. "Electric Vehicle Fire" by "South Metro Fire Rescue Centennial, Colorado" https://youtu.be/itGeAq9rBeY https://youtu.be/itGeAq9rBeY

AtlasBarfed 3y ago

What was the chemistry of the battery? I'm guessing it wasn't LFP, but then again I've heard that LFP isn't quite as fire bulletproof as it was advertised.

hgomersall 3y ago
Where have you heard that? I've seen videos of people actually sinking axes into LFP cells which just vent a bit compared to say NMC which burst into flames.
rightbyte 3y ago
I have never heard that LFP would be fire safe. Just safer compared to other lithium cell types.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
  Correct. That energy stored in the battery needs to go somewhere. Failing fully charged LFP is no less dangerous than any other chemistry.
  - ianburrell 3y ago
    The electrolyte in lithium ion batteries is very flammable. It combusts on contact to air which is why batteries if punctured. LiFePO4 batteries don't have super flammable electrolyte; they can burn but not easily and violently.
  - avianlyric 3y ago
    It’s is less dangerous, because LFP has lower energy density that other lithium chemistries so which means either less energy to dissipate per kg of battery, or more surface area to dissipate the energy per joule. Also LFPs don’t contain components with negative temperature coefficients of resistance (I.e. stuff that gets more conducive as it heats up), which reduces the risk of thermal runaway because LFPs increase their resistance as they get hot, reducing their max output power. Rather other chemistries that reduce resistance as they get hot, increasing their output power.

christkv 3y ago

Oslo in Norway had massive problems due to the cold affecting the amount of charge the buses would hold as well as the charge speed leaving them unable to recharge them fully over night.

Phlarp 3y ago
A universal problem for all EVs in cold climates
rightbyte 3y ago
The temperature does not affect to charge stored in the batteries, right? However, you have to use the battery to heat itself as well as heat the bus (unless you got diesel heater or something for the cabin).
- withinboredom 3y ago
  It’s pretty well known (in industries that use batteries) that temperature affects the capacity of batteries.
- pxeboot 3y ago
  Batteries produce electricity through a chemical reaction. When it is colder, that reaction creates less electricity. If you fully charge a battery, freeze it, then warm it back up, it will still be close to fully charged.
- avianlyric 3y ago
  It’ll impact the usable charge because the colder temps will decrease the ability of the battery to produce high currents. Effectively setting the floor for a “useful” charge level higher. Below that useful level, current supply is too low to power whatever it is you’re powering.
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
Oslo can't have been surprised by the existence of cold weather. Did they not contemplate any countermeasures, like heaters at the charging location or better insulating the batteries so the heat from discharging them and then recharging through regenerative braking keeps them warmer?

Proven 3y ago

[dead]

nbarg 3y ago

[flagged]

vidarh 3y ago
How do you imagine this stops public transportation on that route (hint: it hasn't). (it's also a route that snakes its way through an area where you almost at no point will be more than maybe ~10 minutes walk from a train, underground or tram stop, even if this bus route somehow wasn't running)

rokkitmensch 3y ago

Tail risk is simply outright difficult to get through folks' head.

ilikeitdark 3y ago

We have had quite a few "unexplained" electric and hybrid bus fires here in Barcelona the last few years.

panick21_ 3y ago

We had electric buses for many, many decades. They are called trolley buses and they are awesome. Why they see so little use is crazy to me. All these low carbon plans but instead of just investing in infrastructure, they invest in all these fancy new technologies that really aren't an advantage.