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EVs may be great for someone with a home and garage to charge it, but for renters or more normal folks who have to park on the street, no ones going to add hou

EVs may be great for someone with a home and garage to charge it, but for renters or more normal folks who have to park on the street, no ones going to add hours to their day sitting at a charging station.

grecy 3y ago
> Yeah but do they calculate your personal time value in sitting at a charging station for an hour? An even more interesting calculation would be how much you are shortening your life by standing at a gas pump inhaling carcinogens. Not to mention breathing the exhaust of all the vehicles around you. LA has some of the worst air quality in the developed world [1]. Do you want to live there and breath that everyday? [1] https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2023-04-19/l-a-gets-failing-grade-for-air-quality-once-again https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2023-04-19/l-a-get...
- logifail 3y ago
  > how much you are shortening your life by standing at a gas pump inhaling carcinogens [Full disclosure: worked for years in a chemistry lab where we had "proper" risks, including but not limited to real carcinogens] CDC: "there is no evidence that exposure to gasoline causes cancer in humans"[0] Petrol and diesel are easy to avoid inhaling, not least because they both stink. It's trivial to avoid any potential risk by turning away from the vehicle while fuelling. [0] https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/ToxFAQs/ToxFAQsDetails.aspx?faqid=467&toxid=83#:~:text=Automotive%20gasoline%20is%20currently%20undergoing,gasoline%20causes%20cancer%20in%20humans https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/ToxFAQs/ToxFAQsDetails.aspx?faqid=4....
  - grecy 3y ago
    That link you posted reads almost criminally negligent. "There is not enough information available to determine if gasoline causes birth defects or affects reproduction" My god, spend some time in a remote aboriginal community in the 80s and 90s before OPAL fuel was invented and you would have had all the information you'll ever need. There's a reason they spent millions developing OPAL, and why regular unleaded gasoline (petrol) is illegal in virtually all aboriginal communities.
    - greenyoda 3y ago
      According to Wikipedia, the injuries from gasoline in these communities resulted from deliberately using it as an inhalant (to get intoxicated). This can hardly be compared with standing at a gas pump outdoors for five minutes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal_(fuel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal_(fuel) From that article: "Opal is a variety of low-aromatic 91 RON petrol developed in 2005 by BP Australia to combat the rising use of petrol as an inhalant in remote Indigenous Australian communities. ... Typical unleaded petrol contains 25% aromatics, such as toluene, ortho-xylene and para-xylene. In contrast, Opal contains only 5% aromatics, which means that it has less of the toluene and other solvents which produce the intoxication (or "high") that inhalant users are seeking."
      - grecy 3y ago
        I'm not comparing it to standing at a gas pump. I'm talking about this statement on the CDC site you linked: "There is not enough information available to determine if gasoline causes birth defects or affects reproduction" Borderline criminal.
        logifail 3y ago
        Read an MSDS for unleaded petrol and it's clear one should not mess about with it. https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/country-sites/en_au/australia/home/products-services/data-sheets/regular-unleaded-petrol.pdf https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/country-sites/en_au/austra... Since we're talking about EVs, note that if "electricity" had an MSDS, it would also be full of lawyer-speak warning about risks :)
yathern 3y ago
> for renters or more normal folks who have to park on the street I think categorizing people into "with garages" and "normal" might be a little contentious. A quick search indicates 63% percent of all housing units have a garage or carport[1]. Housing Unit includes apartments and condos. I'm sure it's very geographic, and in large cities the number will be much lower - but many many Americans live in suburbs, where 80% will have garages - this doesn't make them abnormal or particularly wealthy. [1] https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017-sixty-three-percent-all-housing-units-have-garage-or-carport https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017...
- jghn 3y ago
  I assumed they weren't in the US, which could make more sense based on where they *do* live. Where I live in the US having a garage is a luxury. However as you point out having a garage is much more "normal" in the US.
- bbatha 3y ago
  I would also guess that percentage of housing units would be substantially higher if you limited it to homes also owned by people with cars. Both because owning a garage is a lot more desirable if you have a car and homes with garages are in places where people need to drive to get around: there are millions of people in major cities who own neither and have no need for a car.
- hasty_pudding 3y ago
  63% of Americans, own homes and 65% of those homes have garages. the math is clear on what's more normal
ageitgey 3y ago
In London, many neighborhoods have added charging sockets to the existing streetlight posts. I park on the street and can charge overnight easily and cheaply just by parking on the road and plugging in. I'm not saying this will work perfectly in every location or for all cities. But it is relatively easy in many areas to add charging ports with existing infrastructure.
- logifail 3y ago
  > I park on the street and can charge overnight easily and cheaply [..] Q: How much do you pay to charge on-street?
  - ageitgey 3y ago
    Average home electricity prices are 0.29/kwh in London. The street lamp charging costs 0.24/kwh, so actually slightly cheaper for most people than charging at home. By comparison, a Telsa Supercharger will run about 0.65/kwh here (but is obviously faster) and other brands I've seen as high as 0.85/kwh for rapid charging. However if you agreed to an electricity plan where you pay floating hourly rates and you can charge at home with the right equipment, you could in theory pay less by only charging at low rate times overnight. But given the the limited amount of driving I do (basically just weekend trips), the street charging costs are usually so low as to be a rounding error so it is not a big deal either way.
tzs 3y ago
Hours a day? More like 30ish minutes once a week.

grecy 3y ago

> Yeah but do they calculate your personal time value in sitting at a charging station for an hour? An even more interesting calculation would be how much you are shortening your life by standing at a gas pump inhaling carcinogens. Not to mention breathing the exhaust of all the vehicles around you. LA has some of the worst air quality in the developed world [1]. Do you want to live there and breath that everyday? [1] https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2023-04-19/l-a-gets-failing-grade-for-air-quality-once-again https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2023-04-19/l-a-get...

logifail 3y ago
> how much you are shortening your life by standing at a gas pump inhaling carcinogens [Full disclosure: worked for years in a chemistry lab where we had "proper" risks, including but not limited to real carcinogens] CDC: "there is no evidence that exposure to gasoline causes cancer in humans"[0] Petrol and diesel are easy to avoid inhaling, not least because they both stink. It's trivial to avoid any potential risk by turning away from the vehicle while fuelling. [0] https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/ToxFAQs/ToxFAQsDetails.aspx?faqid=467&toxid=83#:~:text=Automotive%20gasoline%20is%20currently%20undergoing,gasoline%20causes%20cancer%20in%20humans https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/ToxFAQs/ToxFAQsDetails.aspx?faqid=4....
- grecy 3y ago
  That link you posted reads almost criminally negligent. "There is not enough information available to determine if gasoline causes birth defects or affects reproduction" My god, spend some time in a remote aboriginal community in the 80s and 90s before OPAL fuel was invented and you would have had all the information you'll ever need. There's a reason they spent millions developing OPAL, and why regular unleaded gasoline (petrol) is illegal in virtually all aboriginal communities.
  - greenyoda 3y ago
    According to Wikipedia, the injuries from gasoline in these communities resulted from deliberately using it as an inhalant (to get intoxicated). This can hardly be compared with standing at a gas pump outdoors for five minutes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal_(fuel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal_(fuel) From that article: "Opal is a variety of low-aromatic 91 RON petrol developed in 2005 by BP Australia to combat the rising use of petrol as an inhalant in remote Indigenous Australian communities. ... Typical unleaded petrol contains 25% aromatics, such as toluene, ortho-xylene and para-xylene. In contrast, Opal contains only 5% aromatics, which means that it has less of the toluene and other solvents which produce the intoxication (or "high") that inhalant users are seeking."
    - grecy 3y ago
      I'm not comparing it to standing at a gas pump. I'm talking about this statement on the CDC site you linked: "There is not enough information available to determine if gasoline causes birth defects or affects reproduction" Borderline criminal.
      - logifail 3y ago
        Read an MSDS for unleaded petrol and it's clear one should not mess about with it. https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/country-sites/en_au/australia/home/products-services/data-sheets/regular-unleaded-petrol.pdf https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/country-sites/en_au/austra... Since we're talking about EVs, note that if "electricity" had an MSDS, it would also be full of lawyer-speak warning about risks :)

yathern 3y ago

> for renters or more normal folks who have to park on the street I think categorizing people into "with garages" and "normal" might be a little contentious. A quick search indicates 63% percent of all housing units have a garage or carport[1]. Housing Unit includes apartments and condos. I'm sure it's very geographic, and in large cities the number will be much lower - but many many Americans live in suburbs, where 80% will have garages - this doesn't make them abnormal or particularly wealthy. [1] https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017-sixty-three-percent-all-housing-units-have-garage-or-carport https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017...

jghn 3y ago
I assumed they weren't in the US, which could make more sense based on where they *do* live. Where I live in the US having a garage is a luxury. However as you point out having a garage is much more "normal" in the US.
bbatha 3y ago
I would also guess that percentage of housing units would be substantially higher if you limited it to homes also owned by people with cars. Both because owning a garage is a lot more desirable if you have a car and homes with garages are in places where people need to drive to get around: there are millions of people in major cities who own neither and have no need for a car.
hasty_pudding 3y ago
63% of Americans, own homes and 65% of those homes have garages. the math is clear on what's more normal

ageitgey 3y ago

In London, many neighborhoods have added charging sockets to the existing streetlight posts. I park on the street and can charge overnight easily and cheaply just by parking on the road and plugging in. I'm not saying this will work perfectly in every location or for all cities. But it is relatively easy in many areas to add charging ports with existing infrastructure.

logifail 3y ago
> I park on the street and can charge overnight easily and cheaply [..] Q: How much do you pay to charge on-street?
- ageitgey 3y ago
  Average home electricity prices are 0.29/kwh in London. The street lamp charging costs 0.24/kwh, so actually slightly cheaper for most people than charging at home. By comparison, a Telsa Supercharger will run about 0.65/kwh here (but is obviously faster) and other brands I've seen as high as 0.85/kwh for rapid charging. However if you agreed to an electricity plan where you pay floating hourly rates and you can charge at home with the right equipment, you could in theory pay less by only charging at low rate times overnight. But given the the limited amount of driving I do (basically just weekend trips), the street charging costs are usually so low as to be a rounding error so it is not a big deal either way.

tzs 3y ago

Hours a day? More like 30ish minutes once a week.