5 ms·

Wouldn't batteries have poor performance in these conditions anyway?

by hammyhavoc 3y ago

voisin 3y ago
Probably not so bad in garages?
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  Looking at Canadian census data for AB, I'm not sure what the correlation of owning an EV and having access to a garage would be, but it's not going to be a super common combination. In those situations, how likely is someone to want to use potential vehicular range during a crisis and instead use it on juice for their home?
  - klyrs 3y ago
    I have a garage and an EV, but we haven't had the budget for the necessary electrical work to power the house.
  - Teever 3y ago
    You don't think that the kind of person who can afford an electric car can afford a garage to put it in? Most, if not all new builds have attached garages in the Edmonton area.
    - hammyhavoc 3y ago
      You're completely forgetting the demographics of people who rent, live in apartments, lease cars etc. You're also assuming everybody wants an EV or feels it is appropriate for the distances they need to travel.
      - Teever 3y ago
        Are there really that many apartment dwellers without access to a parkade in Alberta?
        sctb 3y ago
        Low-rise apartment buildings without parkades are very common in Calgary and (I assume) Edmonton. Block heaters, extension cords, and high-quality ice scrapers are standard fare.
        Teever 3y ago
        https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016005/98-200-x2016005-eng.cfm?wbdisable=true https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98... It looks like most Albertans live in a place where they have access to a garage for their car. I would imagine that many Albertans who live in an apartment also don't drive, or have access to a parkade.
mmastrac 3y ago
I'm not an EV driver but from what I've heard from others, and at least with current battery technology, range is significantly reduced. I've seen a number of reports that Tesla ranges specifically are quite low at this temperature. I don't know if battery life rebounds when the weather improves. Gas engines also struggle to start in this weather and gas lines freeze, though they obviously throw off enough heat to eventually grudgingly function.
- kccqzy 3y ago
  Yup range is reduced for all EVs. And of course range rebounds after the weather warms up; it's not like this temperature is enough to permanently damaging the battery. But on the other hand, heating the cabin is and remains much quicker than ICE engines. If you drive short distances the driver's experience is much better.
- jillesvangurp 3y ago
  Depends on the model. All EVs are affected to some extent. But some models deal with this better than others. A 30-40% range reduction is reasonable to expect with most cars at very low temperatures. This is not a permanent loss. The other thing that happens is that cold batteries don't charge very well. Many modern EVs have battery management systems that manage the temperature of the battery for this reason. This improves both charging and range. Warming up the car of course costs some energy but it's a reasonable tradeoff. Some cars actually have heat pumps that make warming them up a bit more efficient. And of course a nice feature is that you can use an app to turn on the car so the car is nice and comfy by the time you get in. So, it's not that black and white and EVs are pretty popular all over Scandinavia (Norway especially) and in the arctic circle where they have some pretty extreme temperatures every winter. Teslas are pretty popular there and have been for many years. ICE cars also are affected by cold weather of course. You get range issues; maybe not as extreme as with EVs but 15-20% less efficiency is pretty normal. And they have all sorts of fluids besides fuel (brakes, coolant, oil, etc.) that can become problematic if it gets cold enough. Reliability is a much bigger concern than range with cold temperatures. And ICE cars have a lot more things that can fail when it gets cold.
miohtama 3y ago
Litium ion and all mainstream battery technologies are fluid based and cannot operate in extreme cold. That's why EVs have a system to keep the battery pack warm.
- wcoenen 3y ago
  The liquid electrolyte in EV batteries is typically a lithium salt + organic solvent. It doesn't freeze, and these batteries can actually operate in extreme cold. They just perform less well because the chemical reactions slow down. (My personal experience with EVs in the cold only goes down to -10C, with the vehicle parked outside overnight, no charger connected. I saw no issues expect for increased energy consumption.)
  - capitainenemo 3y ago
    The Albertan above was reporting a temperature of -32°C. Searching a few sites online, it was hard to find any data on that. -15°C meant 50% range. I'm guessing your car probably also has battery heating though. And so long as the grid was able to handle it (which does seem to be a problem from the comments above in Alberta even with their tiny EV fleet) most likely you'd just plug it in, and it would stay nice and warm all night with no range impact in the morning - at the cost of a bit of power..
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      To be fair, a lot of petrol engines, and certainly diesel engines will have trouble starting at those temps unless they are in top condition. "Plug in heaters" are the solution there as well, to keep the engine block warm. Diesels will also need fuel treatement or fuel heaters to keep the fuel from turning to gel.
    - speedgoose 3y ago
      I drove my EV by -30 on Norway this month. Keeping about 19 degrees inside was using a lot of energy as cars aren’t well insulated. The range is bad in winter but fast charging produces a lot of heat in the battery, you can see steam going from below the car while charging, that can then be moved to the cabin after. So long trips aren’t that bad. But you spend more, for sure. And you need a good winter EV. A lot of EVs on the market are terrible winter EVs. Also, you don’t keep the battery warm all night as it would waste too much energy, but you should pre-heat the battery if you want descent battery performances immediately after you drive. On my car, it takes a few minutes while connected to the wall. I can start it from the phone or program it.

Wouldn't batteries have poor performance in these conditions anyway?

voisin 3y ago

Probably not so bad in garages?

hammyhavoc 3y ago
Looking at Canadian census data for AB, I'm not sure what the correlation of owning an EV and having access to a garage would be, but it's not going to be a super common combination. In those situations, how likely is someone to want to use potential vehicular range during a crisis and instead use it on juice for their home?
- klyrs 3y ago
  I have a garage and an EV, but we haven't had the budget for the necessary electrical work to power the house.
- Teever 3y ago
  You don't think that the kind of person who can afford an electric car can afford a garage to put it in? Most, if not all new builds have attached garages in the Edmonton area.
  - hammyhavoc 3y ago
    You're completely forgetting the demographics of people who rent, live in apartments, lease cars etc. You're also assuming everybody wants an EV or feels it is appropriate for the distances they need to travel.
    - Teever 3y ago
      Are there really that many apartment dwellers without access to a parkade in Alberta?
      - sctb 3y ago
        Low-rise apartment buildings without parkades are very common in Calgary and (I assume) Edmonton. Block heaters, extension cords, and high-quality ice scrapers are standard fare.
        Teever 3y ago
        https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016005/98-200-x2016005-eng.cfm?wbdisable=true https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98... It looks like most Albertans live in a place where they have access to a garage for their car. I would imagine that many Albertans who live in an apartment also don't drive, or have access to a parkade.

mmastrac 3y ago

I'm not an EV driver but from what I've heard from others, and at least with current battery technology, range is significantly reduced. I've seen a number of reports that Tesla ranges specifically are quite low at this temperature. I don't know if battery life rebounds when the weather improves. Gas engines also struggle to start in this weather and gas lines freeze, though they obviously throw off enough heat to eventually grudgingly function.

kccqzy 3y ago
Yup range is reduced for all EVs. And of course range rebounds after the weather warms up; it's not like this temperature is enough to permanently damaging the battery. But on the other hand, heating the cabin is and remains much quicker than ICE engines. If you drive short distances the driver's experience is much better.
jillesvangurp 3y ago
Depends on the model. All EVs are affected to some extent. But some models deal with this better than others. A 30-40% range reduction is reasonable to expect with most cars at very low temperatures. This is not a permanent loss. The other thing that happens is that cold batteries don't charge very well. Many modern EVs have battery management systems that manage the temperature of the battery for this reason. This improves both charging and range. Warming up the car of course costs some energy but it's a reasonable tradeoff. Some cars actually have heat pumps that make warming them up a bit more efficient. And of course a nice feature is that you can use an app to turn on the car so the car is nice and comfy by the time you get in. So, it's not that black and white and EVs are pretty popular all over Scandinavia (Norway especially) and in the arctic circle where they have some pretty extreme temperatures every winter. Teslas are pretty popular there and have been for many years. ICE cars also are affected by cold weather of course. You get range issues; maybe not as extreme as with EVs but 15-20% less efficiency is pretty normal. And they have all sorts of fluids besides fuel (brakes, coolant, oil, etc.) that can become problematic if it gets cold enough. Reliability is a much bigger concern than range with cold temperatures. And ICE cars have a lot more things that can fail when it gets cold.

miohtama 3y ago

Litium ion and all mainstream battery technologies are fluid based and cannot operate in extreme cold. That's why EVs have a system to keep the battery pack warm.

wcoenen 3y ago
The liquid electrolyte in EV batteries is typically a lithium salt + organic solvent. It doesn't freeze, and these batteries can actually operate in extreme cold. They just perform less well because the chemical reactions slow down. (My personal experience with EVs in the cold only goes down to -10C, with the vehicle parked outside overnight, no charger connected. I saw no issues expect for increased energy consumption.)
- capitainenemo 3y ago
  The Albertan above was reporting a temperature of -32°C. Searching a few sites online, it was hard to find any data on that. -15°C meant 50% range. I'm guessing your car probably also has battery heating though. And so long as the grid was able to handle it (which does seem to be a problem from the comments above in Alberta even with their tiny EV fleet) most likely you'd just plug it in, and it would stay nice and warm all night with no range impact in the morning - at the cost of a bit of power..
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    To be fair, a lot of petrol engines, and certainly diesel engines will have trouble starting at those temps unless they are in top condition. "Plug in heaters" are the solution there as well, to keep the engine block warm. Diesels will also need fuel treatement or fuel heaters to keep the fuel from turning to gel.
  - speedgoose 3y ago
    I drove my EV by -30 on Norway this month. Keeping about 19 degrees inside was using a lot of energy as cars aren’t well insulated. The range is bad in winter but fast charging produces a lot of heat in the battery, you can see steam going from below the car while charging, that can then be moved to the cabin after. So long trips aren’t that bad. But you spend more, for sure. And you need a good winter EV. A lot of EVs on the market are terrible winter EVs. Also, you don’t keep the battery warm all night as it would waste too much energy, but you should pre-heat the battery if you want descent battery performances immediately after you drive. On my car, it takes a few minutes while connected to the wall. I can start it from the phone or program it.