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Well, you could say the same today: why would the capital owners pay stagnating or decreasing real wages if they sell their products to those very same wage ear

Well, you could say the same today: why would the capital owners pay stagnating or decreasing real wages if they sell their products to those very same wage earners? Say, if I own a furniture store, isn't it in my interest for Walmart and McDonald's to pay good wages, so that more people can afford my products? But what real leverage do I have to get that outcome? It's not like there's a dark cabal of employers that sets wages. Money is just a made up thing we invented to measure economic value. If a worker is truly valueless, then he gets no money and simply does not participate in the economy. For all the capitalist system is concerned, it's as if he's a starving subsistence farmer in sub-saharian Africa, he's outside the economy and there are no money to be made supplying him with goods and services. The economy does not "collapse" compared to a virtual level where all starving people of Africa are housed, fed, card and amazoned. Of course you could interpret this as just an extreme form of inequality, where the redundant get some form of food and shelter covering UBI, while the capitalist and the samurai class earn riches beyond comprehension. The system is feudal in the sense that all relative wealth (thus, political power) is concentrated to a small number of people, not that somebody necessarily starves. The serfs could have quite a comfortable life, arguing on HN etc.

tesdinger 3y ago
There is no money to be made supplying a subsistence farmer with goods and services? Are you aware of the donations business?
chongli 3y ago
For all the capitalist system is concerned, it's as if he's a starving subsistence farmer in sub-saharian Africa, he's outside the economy and there are no money to be made supplying him with goods and services. The economy does not "collapse" compared to a virtual level where all starving people of Africa are housed, fed, card and amazoned. I brought up an African country in another comment in this discussion: Eritrea. This is a country where a tiny elite owns pretty much all of the wealth in the country and the bulk of the population live in vast slums of unimaginable deprivation. There is no path for those people to achieve even the most basic working-class lifestyle because they have nothing to offer the wealthy aristocrats of their country. If we are reduced to that situation, I consider it a collapse, and I think that people take for granted the belief such a collapse is impossible. It is absolutely possible. A wealthy elite tended by an army of robotic servants living in obscene luxury, maintained by a handful of samurai technologists, while untold billions live in squalor. Elections reserved only for the landed elite. The vast population left freezing in the darkness. Well, you could say the same today: why would the capital owners pay stagnating or decreasing real wages if they sell their products to those very same wage earners? You can't say the same today. The capital owners right now earn a profit by doing so and their wealth grows. If an AI revolution makes all of their workers redundant then they won't hesitate to lay them all off. McDonald's has already begun the experiment [1]. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/first-ever-mcdonalds-served-robots-texas-1769116 https://www.newsweek.com/first-ever-mcdonalds-served-robots-...

tesdinger 3y ago

There is no money to be made supplying a subsistence farmer with goods and services? Are you aware of the donations business?

chongli 3y ago

For all the capitalist system is concerned, it's as if he's a starving subsistence farmer in sub-saharian Africa, he's outside the economy and there are no money to be made supplying him with goods and services. The economy does not "collapse" compared to a virtual level where all starving people of Africa are housed, fed, card and amazoned. I brought up an African country in another comment in this discussion: Eritrea. This is a country where a tiny elite owns pretty much all of the wealth in the country and the bulk of the population live in vast slums of unimaginable deprivation. There is no path for those people to achieve even the most basic working-class lifestyle because they have nothing to offer the wealthy aristocrats of their country. If we are reduced to that situation, I consider it a collapse, and I think that people take for granted the belief such a collapse is impossible. It is absolutely possible. A wealthy elite tended by an army of robotic servants living in obscene luxury, maintained by a handful of samurai technologists, while untold billions live in squalor. Elections reserved only for the landed elite. The vast population left freezing in the darkness. Well, you could say the same today: why would the capital owners pay stagnating or decreasing real wages if they sell their products to those very same wage earners? You can't say the same today. The capital owners right now earn a profit by doing so and their wealth grows. If an AI revolution makes all of their workers redundant then they won't hesitate to lay them all off. McDonald's has already begun the experiment [1]. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/first-ever-mcdonalds-served-robots-texas-1769116 https://www.newsweek.com/first-ever-mcdonalds-served-robots-...