3 ms·

> it's cringe seeing key leaders talking down to people, or dismissing people's concerns, or just have this ego about themselves like they know what's best and

by p0nce 3y ago

> it's cringe seeing key leaders talking down to people, or dismissing people's concerns, or just have this ego about themselves like they know what's best and everyone should shutup and just go along with them. That's not the case. The job of language designers is to say "no" all the time and Walter is certainly a model with how to speak with users.

mhh__ 3y ago
I don't think Walter has ever intentionally talked down to anyone in my time, but his tone can be subtly belittling over some details. I don't think it's intentional but the argument always begins with explaining some detail as if you didn't know it existed even though you'd have to do be able to bring it up in the first place. This is not just me, I've had this discussion with a few people. One of a short list of complaints of this kind it must be said.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Time will tell how the maintainers of the fork will react to similar criticism. It's very easy to stand by the sidelines as a community member and to piss on the leadership, it's an entirely different thing to be in that position yourself. Ask GvR what it feels like to herd a band of cats over a period of decades. You need to be in it for the long run and you need to be utterly dedicated to make this really work.
  - jancsika 3y ago
    > You need to be in it for the long run and you need to be utterly dedicated to make this really work. There also has to be an escape hatch to make this work. E.g., Linus can say that the __is_constexpr preprocessor hack is the product of a demented mind, and he'll merge that absolute monstrosity thanking the contributor. As a leader you get the contributor community that you get. You can either make the development process workable for them, or you can risk the project languishing/forking. Put another way: if a leader's concept of what their project ought to be/become veers too far from what the community is actively coding up to be merged, it's not going to go well. No idea if this applies to D. But I'm absolutely certain Python's dev process has had plenty of escape hatches for resolving development issues. (And I'd guess there are also projects that have too many escape hatches, but I'm guessing that probably doesn't apply to D.)
- p0nce 3y ago
  I haven't seen any of that tbh, I have seen a lot of disrespect come in direction of Walter and him responding in a gracious way actually. Criticism existence means it is allowed and thus is "open".
  - mhh__ 3y ago
    I would never fault Walters graciousness, rather that I and others just find it difficult to establish a common ground quite often. You can see this very clearly in the discussion of the SQL applications of the string interpolation proposals.

by p0nce 3y ago

mhh__ 3y ago

I don't think Walter has ever intentionally talked down to anyone in my time, but his tone can be subtly belittling over some details. I don't think it's intentional but the argument always begins with explaining some detail as if you didn't know it existed even though you'd have to do be able to bring it up in the first place. This is not just me, I've had this discussion with a few people. One of a short list of complaints of this kind it must be said.

jacquesm 3y ago
Time will tell how the maintainers of the fork will react to similar criticism. It's very easy to stand by the sidelines as a community member and to piss on the leadership, it's an entirely different thing to be in that position yourself. Ask GvR what it feels like to herd a band of cats over a period of decades. You need to be in it for the long run and you need to be utterly dedicated to make this really work.
- jancsika 3y ago
  > You need to be in it for the long run and you need to be utterly dedicated to make this really work. There also has to be an escape hatch to make this work. E.g., Linus can say that the __is_constexpr preprocessor hack is the product of a demented mind, and he'll merge that absolute monstrosity thanking the contributor. As a leader you get the contributor community that you get. You can either make the development process workable for them, or you can risk the project languishing/forking. Put another way: if a leader's concept of what their project ought to be/become veers too far from what the community is actively coding up to be merged, it's not going to go well. No idea if this applies to D. But I'm absolutely certain Python's dev process has had plenty of escape hatches for resolving development issues. (And I'd guess there are also projects that have too many escape hatches, but I'm guessing that probably doesn't apply to D.)
p0nce 3y ago
I haven't seen any of that tbh, I have seen a lot of disrespect come in direction of Walter and him responding in a gracious way actually. Criticism existence means it is allowed and thus is "open".
- mhh__ 3y ago
  I would never fault Walters graciousness, rather that I and others just find it difficult to establish a common ground quite often. You can see this very clearly in the discussion of the SQL applications of the string interpolation proposals.