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No I think you missed my point. Probably I'm just making a bad job of explaining what I mean. But I also suspect you're been primed to be on the defensive give

No I think you missed my point. Probably I'm just making a bad job of explaining what I mean. But I also suspect you're been primed to be on the defensive given how many people are attacking liberal values. My point is this: There is a growing rhetoric on the right of center that tries to frame "the left" as this obscure force that all sort of nefarious things. They take examples out if the most fringe corners and use them to fuel their base. Like the guy that insisted to have a litter box in the workplace because he identified as a cat. But none of that shit is a "policy of the left". None of that shit is anything you be worried about. That's my point. There is almost nothing fueled by sincere progressive values that one should be afraid of. The left is not raping babies or whatnot. In that sense, the only strategic mistake that people on the left of center are doing is to feed the trolls on the right. I understand that you're framing this as "well, fuck them, _they_ are the trolls don't blame me for feeding them, I'm the victim don't blame me". But that kind of logic works only when dealing with individuals. Our natural moral instincts are not adapted to dealing with massive societies with hundreds of million of people engaging in an information warfare of an unprecedented scale. Every real fascist out there would be neutered if it wasn't for a number of people who have no clue about anything and are just passively going through their lives just passively following along whatever their social group is nudging them to follow. Denying this fact and claiming that absolutely all people are 100% active political agents that are either 100% fascist or 100% anti-fascist is wishful thinking at best and a dangerous trap at worst. If you want to make the world a better place you need to understand people and find compromises that get most people on board. If you're doing that somebody else will and some will not hesitate to leverage the lowest human instincts such as xenophobia to rally people on their side. I don't want to live in such a world

DonHopkins 3y ago
Look, stop blaming the victim for the aggressor's behavior. Women do not force men to be rapists by wearing sexy clothes. Back to the other point: YOU said it's your BIGGEST concern. Those were YOUR words, I did not put them into your mouth. And that's an absolutely ridiculous priority. There are much bigger and more important and real concerns than your logical fallacies about blaming victims for their aggressor's behavior.
- ithkuil 3y ago
  It was my biggest concern about the topic in this thread, which I thought was "how dangerous the left can be" to switch I wanted to reply basically "the left poses no danger except to itself" which honestly was never controversial (look at the subtext Life of Brian, it was always a trope of the lefts). But for some reason you have to frame the whole thing as if I was doing victim blaming. I surely didn't mean that was my absolute biggest concern out of all concerns. Please apply the principle of charity when interpreting other people's words.
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    The principle of charity says that I should take what you say at face value, which I did. I didn't hold a gun to your head and force you to say "So far the biggest concern I have with the far left". Those were YOUR OWN WORDS. And what evidence do you have of your insidious armchair sociology? Absolutely none. You're just making stuff up, and it justifies blaming women for men becoming rapists as much as it justifies blaming AntiFa for people becoming fascists.
    - ithkuil 3y ago
      > the principle of charity or charitable interpretation requires interpreting a speaker's statements in the most rational way possible and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation note that this doesn't mean "at face value".
DonHopkins 3y ago
And the other point is that you're just handwaving and dreaming up "just so" stories that explain why well dressed women cause men to become rapists just as well as they explain how AntiFa causes reasonable people to become fascists. Where is your proof? Can you cite some scientific studies, or sworn confessions of rapists and fascists? No, you can't. You're just making dangerous shit up.
- ithkuil 3y ago
  we're talking about rapists now? why are you strawmanning my position? Proof? Look at how right wing is winning elections across us and europe. A few years before they didn't win, then now they're winnin, then a few years in the future they will no longer win. Why so? Because people change their minds! What kind of people change their minds? Two kinds of people: a) people who have open minds and are presented with compelling evidence yadda yadda b) people who don't think much in the first place and just go with the tide. You're holding me to unreasonable standards if you "require" of me that I present "evidence". I'm just a person sharing a personal opinion and you're tone is honestly a little rude. For some reason you decided that I really believe that I said that fascists shouldn't be blamed for being fascists and it's all fault of the left, just because I aired a personal opinion that if we don't want to see fascists win general elections we should be careful and not give those fuckers fuel to spend on undecided people. You're free to disagree but don't strawman my position. Perhaps I'm wrong and perhaps there are indeed 51% of immovable fascists in my country who voted literal fascists who are literally doing nazi salute as of last week in a public square in the capital. But, hey, I'm an optimist, I really hope they won the elections because they are tons of people who don't give a fuck and just got confused into voting these literal fascists. You can disagree about that! Perhaps you can try to convince me that >51% percent of countrymen are literal fascists and there is just no hope talking to them and making a case that there are better ways to live on this planet. Or perhaps that's true in your country but not in mine? Who knows. I hope it's not the case though. Have a good day

DonHopkins 3y ago

Look, stop blaming the victim for the aggressor's behavior. Women do not force men to be rapists by wearing sexy clothes. Back to the other point: YOU said it's your BIGGEST concern. Those were YOUR words, I did not put them into your mouth. And that's an absolutely ridiculous priority. There are much bigger and more important and real concerns than your logical fallacies about blaming victims for their aggressor's behavior.

ithkuil 3y ago
It was my biggest concern about the topic in this thread, which I thought was "how dangerous the left can be" to switch I wanted to reply basically "the left poses no danger except to itself" which honestly was never controversial (look at the subtext Life of Brian, it was always a trope of the lefts). But for some reason you have to frame the whole thing as if I was doing victim blaming. I surely didn't mean that was my absolute biggest concern out of all concerns. Please apply the principle of charity when interpreting other people's words.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  The principle of charity says that I should take what you say at face value, which I did. I didn't hold a gun to your head and force you to say "So far the biggest concern I have with the far left". Those were YOUR OWN WORDS. And what evidence do you have of your insidious armchair sociology? Absolutely none. You're just making stuff up, and it justifies blaming women for men becoming rapists as much as it justifies blaming AntiFa for people becoming fascists.
  - ithkuil 3y ago
    > the principle of charity or charitable interpretation requires interpreting a speaker's statements in the most rational way possible and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation note that this doesn't mean "at face value".

DonHopkins 3y ago

And the other point is that you're just handwaving and dreaming up "just so" stories that explain why well dressed women cause men to become rapists just as well as they explain how AntiFa causes reasonable people to become fascists. Where is your proof? Can you cite some scientific studies, or sworn confessions of rapists and fascists? No, you can't. You're just making dangerous shit up.

ithkuil 3y ago
we're talking about rapists now? why are you strawmanning my position? Proof? Look at how right wing is winning elections across us and europe. A few years before they didn't win, then now they're winnin, then a few years in the future they will no longer win. Why so? Because people change their minds! What kind of people change their minds? Two kinds of people: a) people who have open minds and are presented with compelling evidence yadda yadda b) people who don't think much in the first place and just go with the tide. You're holding me to unreasonable standards if you "require" of me that I present "evidence". I'm just a person sharing a personal opinion and you're tone is honestly a little rude. For some reason you decided that I really believe that I said that fascists shouldn't be blamed for being fascists and it's all fault of the left, just because I aired a personal opinion that if we don't want to see fascists win general elections we should be careful and not give those fuckers fuel to spend on undecided people. You're free to disagree but don't strawman my position. Perhaps I'm wrong and perhaps there are indeed 51% of immovable fascists in my country who voted literal fascists who are literally doing nazi salute as of last week in a public square in the capital. But, hey, I'm an optimist, I really hope they won the elections because they are tons of people who don't give a fuck and just got confused into voting these literal fascists. You can disagree about that! Perhaps you can try to convince me that >51% percent of countrymen are literal fascists and there is just no hope talking to them and making a case that there are better ways to live on this planet. Or perhaps that's true in your country but not in mine? Who knows. I hope it's not the case though. Have a good day