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The 787 is not bad. Its a great aircraft and they have sold a shit-ton of them. But it was also a program that went hilariously over budget. Nearly costing as

The 787 is not bad. Its a great aircraft and they have sold a shit-ton of them. But it was also a program that went hilariously over budget. Nearly costing as much as the A380. It had a whole bunch of problems and still has problems today. Lots of production issues. This had lead to a situation where they will need to sold literally 1500 or more planes to break even on the program. And 1500 is a gigantic amount of wide-bodies. The 787 didn't really eat A380s lunch. Its more like 2 companies both thought about what the best investment would be for the future. Boeing picked the right plane. Airbus picked the wrong plane. The competitor to the A380 was the 747-8 and the 777. Had Airbus not totally misread the market and invested in totally the wrong market. The Dreamliner could have backfired on Boeing. If Airbus had a 787 serious competitor out at the same time, the 787 might never have sold more then 1500 times. They already have total order of around 1800 and there are likely gone be many more because Airbus doesn't have a perfect competitor plane. In the wide-body market, Boeing is still totally competitive with Airbus. Its the narrow body market where Airbus is kicking Boeing ass.

gmac 3y ago
I thought the A350 was Airbus’s answer to the 787. Curious why that’s not a ‘perfect competitor’?
- rowyourboat 3y ago
  It's a bit larger, more in the range of the 777 than the 787. Roughly, it used to be A330 vs 767 and A340 vs 777, the A330 and the 777 were the winners in these segments. The 787 was built to beat the A330, and it did, and the A350 was built to beat the 777, and it might. Airbus reacted to the 787 with a re-engined A330, the A330neo, which was not a great success, but not a total flop. Boeing re-engined and enlarged the 777 to create the 777X, whose smaller variant positioned against the A350 is a slow seller, but whose larger variant, which has no direct competitor, has seen some sales - if Boeing manages to get it out of the door, the program is again hugely delayed and over budget.
  - dehrmann 3y ago
    I'm always amazed at how many capacity niches gets filled between different models and variants.
    - panick21_ 3y ago
      Yeah, essentially Boeing has 3 aircraft, 737, 787, 777. Airbus had 3 as well. Those are A320, A330, A350. Then added A220. That basically covers the majority of the market.
      - SonicScrub 3y ago
        > A220 RIP C-Series
fransje26 3y ago
> and they have sold a shit-ton of them Incidentally, that also sold a shit-ton of 737 MAX. Maybe not the best metric to choose. > Had Airbus not totally misread the market and invested in totally the wrong market. Missed the market by so much, they are pulling the A380s out of storage. > They already have total order of around 1800 and there are likely gone be many more because Airbus doesn't have a perfect competitor plane The A350 _is_ the perfect competitor. The two planes are, by their design, not competing in the same segments.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  > Incidentally, that also sold a shit-ton of 737 MAX. Maybe not the best metric to choose. You have to think about the difference between narrow and wide bodies. Yes they sold many 737 MAXs but not compared to Airbus narrow bodies. > Missed the market by so much, they are pulling the A380s out of storage. Sure. Nice for them. But that doesn't change anything for Airbus, they are not gone sell more of them. There was never a question if A380 would go away competently, its the right aircraft for many airlines. Lets be real, Airbus sold 250 A380 and is never gone build more. Boeing sold 1800 787s and will sell many more. Its not really a competition what was the better investment. > The A350 _is_ the perfect competitor. The two planes are, by their design, not competing in the same segments. Sure if you don't understand the industry. The very biggest 787 is slightly competitive with the smallest A350. But that is not the focus of either of those planes design. Airbus deliberately did not build a 787 competitor, they believed the market would would already be mostly captured. So they build a competitor to the 777 instead, with the goal of replacing older wide bodies like the 777, 747 and 380. The A330 NEO is the more direct competitor to the 787 core business.
- filleduchaos 3y ago
  > Missed the market by so much, they are pulling the A380s out of storage. A380s are being pulled out of storage because they, like many other types of planes, were parked due to COVID and travel restrictions and are now returning to their previous service. What does that have to the airliner market?
  - 3y ago

gmac 3y ago

I thought the A350 was Airbus’s answer to the 787. Curious why that’s not a ‘perfect competitor’?

rowyourboat 3y ago
It's a bit larger, more in the range of the 777 than the 787. Roughly, it used to be A330 vs 767 and A340 vs 777, the A330 and the 777 were the winners in these segments. The 787 was built to beat the A330, and it did, and the A350 was built to beat the 777, and it might. Airbus reacted to the 787 with a re-engined A330, the A330neo, which was not a great success, but not a total flop. Boeing re-engined and enlarged the 777 to create the 777X, whose smaller variant positioned against the A350 is a slow seller, but whose larger variant, which has no direct competitor, has seen some sales - if Boeing manages to get it out of the door, the program is again hugely delayed and over budget.
- dehrmann 3y ago
  I'm always amazed at how many capacity niches gets filled between different models and variants.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    Yeah, essentially Boeing has 3 aircraft, 737, 787, 777. Airbus had 3 as well. Those are A320, A330, A350. Then added A220. That basically covers the majority of the market.
    - SonicScrub 3y ago
      > A220 RIP C-Series

fransje26 3y ago

> and they have sold a shit-ton of them Incidentally, that also sold a shit-ton of 737 MAX. Maybe not the best metric to choose. > Had Airbus not totally misread the market and invested in totally the wrong market. Missed the market by so much, they are pulling the A380s out of storage. > They already have total order of around 1800 and there are likely gone be many more because Airbus doesn't have a perfect competitor plane The A350 _is_ the perfect competitor. The two planes are, by their design, not competing in the same segments.

panick21_ 3y ago
> Incidentally, that also sold a shit-ton of 737 MAX. Maybe not the best metric to choose. You have to think about the difference between narrow and wide bodies. Yes they sold many 737 MAXs but not compared to Airbus narrow bodies. > Missed the market by so much, they are pulling the A380s out of storage. Sure. Nice for them. But that doesn't change anything for Airbus, they are not gone sell more of them. There was never a question if A380 would go away competently, its the right aircraft for many airlines. Lets be real, Airbus sold 250 A380 and is never gone build more. Boeing sold 1800 787s and will sell many more. Its not really a competition what was the better investment. > The A350 _is_ the perfect competitor. The two planes are, by their design, not competing in the same segments. Sure if you don't understand the industry. The very biggest 787 is slightly competitive with the smallest A350. But that is not the focus of either of those planes design. Airbus deliberately did not build a 787 competitor, they believed the market would would already be mostly captured. So they build a competitor to the 777 instead, with the goal of replacing older wide bodies like the 777, 747 and 380. The A330 NEO is the more direct competitor to the 787 core business.
filleduchaos 3y ago
> Missed the market by so much, they are pulling the A380s out of storage. A380s are being pulled out of storage because they, like many other types of planes, were parked due to COVID and travel restrictions and are now returning to their previous service. What does that have to the airliner market?
- 3y ago