5 ms·

The 787 is an innovative aircraft, but its existence is a comedy of errors. It was never competition for the A380 though. The problem is that Boeing bit off mo

The 787 is an innovative aircraft, but its existence is a comedy of errors. It was never competition for the A380 though. The problem is that Boeing bit off more than they could chew when they tried to innovate in three areas: concept, design, and execution. They outsourced the latter two and provided insufficient oversight. Concept: Lithium-ion batteries are great tech. Design: Boeing outsourced the electrical system design work to Thales, and the first production airliner designed around lithium-ion batteries seemed like a great idea until they started catching fire. Execution: Relying heavily on sub-contractors to build big chunks of the 787 was a great idea to save money, until the subs couldn't maintain the pace Boeing wanted for the price Boeing was willing to pay. So Boeing bought the South Carolina facility. And Boeing keeps insisting on learning the hard way. Last year the FAA halted deliveries of the 787 for a few months due to quality issues.

philwelch 3y ago
The outsourcing and the SC facility are also motivated by Boeing’s decades-long war with its unions in Washington. Unfortunately for Boeing, the unionized workers in Renton and Everett were really good at their jobs compared to the workers in SC and at the subs, to the point that customers specifically demanded only to receive 787’s that were built in Everett. I am not, in general, a pro-union guy, so I’m arguing against my natural bias here. But Boeing fucked up big time moving production out of Washington.
- hinkley 3y ago
  It seems like McDonnell Douglas thinks unions are the biggest threat to Boeing, not IP. Big parts of the 787 design did not require the ridiculous gantry crane to move and place. I could see that the point of that was to be able to spin up new production sites effectively, and the main value in that was not building a million planes but leverage against the unions. I think buying SC was crocodile tears at best.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  It's an impressive level of cognitive dissonance to describe union workers as more competent and customers demanding union-built planes because those planes are better built, and then still feel the need to throw in a "unions suck" comment.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    Not at all. I don't think the union makes the Boeing workers in Washington more competent. It's the decades of experience and tribal knowledge that have been passed down in the Renton and Everett factories that make those workers more competent. At any rate, I'm not trying to start an argument about unions. I only brought it up to underscore my point that despite completely sympathizing with their motivations, I still think Boeing's management made a mistake. It's not cognitive dissonance to have a nuanced view of the world and to acknowledge that there are real world exceptions to what I might otherwise believe based purely on my general biases. If that's difficult for you to understand, I am genuinely sorry for you.
    - albert180 3y ago
      Maybe people getting paid a decent salary just care more about the product and the quality than people getting paid shit wages
      - philwelch 3y ago
        You people really get triggered when someone casually states an opinion you disagree with, don’t you? Not taking the bait, sorry. The mere fact that you are so tedious and defensive about this point only makes me more determined not to be associated with your position. You and Kenny are coming across as the type of people who see everything in simplistic black-and-white terms in which everything that ever goes wrong in the world, goes wrong because someone went against with your opinions which are Obviously Right And Impossible To Disagree With In Good Faith. That’s not how I see things and I am glad to make crystal clear that my criticism of Boeing’s decision is not rooted in any sort of unthinking pro-union tribalism, but rather in a considered appraisal of the situation in which I am willing to not only question but even reject the easy answers my own biases would otherwise lead me to.

philwelch 3y ago

The outsourcing and the SC facility are also motivated by Boeing’s decades-long war with its unions in Washington. Unfortunately for Boeing, the unionized workers in Renton and Everett were really good at their jobs compared to the workers in SC and at the subs, to the point that customers specifically demanded only to receive 787’s that were built in Everett. I am not, in general, a pro-union guy, so I’m arguing against my natural bias here. But Boeing fucked up big time moving production out of Washington.

hinkley 3y ago
It seems like McDonnell Douglas thinks unions are the biggest threat to Boeing, not IP. Big parts of the 787 design did not require the ridiculous gantry crane to move and place. I could see that the point of that was to be able to spin up new production sites effectively, and the main value in that was not building a million planes but leverage against the unions. I think buying SC was crocodile tears at best.
KennyBlanken 3y ago
It's an impressive level of cognitive dissonance to describe union workers as more competent and customers demanding union-built planes because those planes are better built, and then still feel the need to throw in a "unions suck" comment.
- philwelch 3y ago
  Not at all. I don't think the union makes the Boeing workers in Washington more competent. It's the decades of experience and tribal knowledge that have been passed down in the Renton and Everett factories that make those workers more competent. At any rate, I'm not trying to start an argument about unions. I only brought it up to underscore my point that despite completely sympathizing with their motivations, I still think Boeing's management made a mistake. It's not cognitive dissonance to have a nuanced view of the world and to acknowledge that there are real world exceptions to what I might otherwise believe based purely on my general biases. If that's difficult for you to understand, I am genuinely sorry for you.
  - albert180 3y ago
    Maybe people getting paid a decent salary just care more about the product and the quality than people getting paid shit wages
    - philwelch 3y ago
      You people really get triggered when someone casually states an opinion you disagree with, don’t you? Not taking the bait, sorry. The mere fact that you are so tedious and defensive about this point only makes me more determined not to be associated with your position. You and Kenny are coming across as the type of people who see everything in simplistic black-and-white terms in which everything that ever goes wrong in the world, goes wrong because someone went against with your opinions which are Obviously Right And Impossible To Disagree With In Good Faith. That’s not how I see things and I am glad to make crystal clear that my criticism of Boeing’s decision is not rooted in any sort of unthinking pro-union tribalism, but rather in a considered appraisal of the situation in which I am willing to not only question but even reject the easy answers my own biases would otherwise lead me to.