4 ms·

I'm not blaming anti-fascists. We need more anti-fascist people in the world not less. I'm blaming lunatics who happen to also be anti-fascists (or claim to be

I'm not blaming anti-fascists. We need more anti-fascist people in the world not less. I'm blaming lunatics who happen to also be anti-fascists (or claim to be) that are turning non-fascist people fascists.

DonHopkins 3y ago
Yes you are blaming anti-fascists, and you completely missed the point. They're not "turning" non-fascist people fascists. You are denying the agency of non-fascist people to decide whether or not to turn fascist themselves. AntiFa does not control them. They're not suddenly becoming fascist against their will, because of somebody else forcing them to. Nobody is forcing non-fascists to make that life choice to become fascist, certainly not anti-fascists. It's completely their own fault that they decided to become fascists. Got it? It is nobody's fault but their own. So stop carrying the water for fascists and putting the blame on other innocent people who oppose them. Did somebody else force you to make your "biggest concern" carrying the water and making excuses for fascists, because you have no control over your own mind and mouth, or did you actually chose to do it yourself? Take some personal responsibility for your own beliefs. What a pathetic and misguided "biggest concern" you have, dude. Those were your own words. So don't do fascists the favor of blaming anti-fascists and victims of fascists for the existence of fascists: they don't deserve your favors and excuses. It's 100% their own fault. Find a better biggest concern. By your own twisted logic, Jews are responsible for anti-semitism. And that's absolute total bullshit.
- ithkuil 3y ago
  No I think you missed my point. Probably I'm just making a bad job of explaining what I mean. But I also suspect you're been primed to be on the defensive given how many people are attacking liberal values. My point is this: There is a growing rhetoric on the right of center that tries to frame "the left" as this obscure force that all sort of nefarious things. They take examples out if the most fringe corners and use them to fuel their base. Like the guy that insisted to have a litter box in the workplace because he identified as a cat. But none of that shit is a "policy of the left". None of that shit is anything you be worried about. That's my point. There is almost nothing fueled by sincere progressive values that one should be afraid of. The left is not raping babies or whatnot. In that sense, the only strategic mistake that people on the left of center are doing is to feed the trolls on the right. I understand that you're framing this as "well, fuck them, _they_ are the trolls don't blame me for feeding them, I'm the victim don't blame me". But that kind of logic works only when dealing with individuals. Our natural moral instincts are not adapted to dealing with massive societies with hundreds of million of people engaging in an information warfare of an unprecedented scale. Every real fascist out there would be neutered if it wasn't for a number of people who have no clue about anything and are just passively going through their lives just passively following along whatever their social group is nudging them to follow. Denying this fact and claiming that absolutely all people are 100% active political agents that are either 100% fascist or 100% anti-fascist is wishful thinking at best and a dangerous trap at worst. If you want to make the world a better place you need to understand people and find compromises that get most people on board. If you're doing that somebody else will and some will not hesitate to leverage the lowest human instincts such as xenophobia to rally people on their side. I don't want to live in such a world
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    Look, stop blaming the victim for the aggressor's behavior. Women do not force men to be rapists by wearing sexy clothes. Back to the other point: YOU said it's your BIGGEST concern. Those were YOUR words, I did not put them into your mouth. And that's an absolutely ridiculous priority. There are much bigger and more important and real concerns than your logical fallacies about blaming victims for their aggressor's behavior.
    - ithkuil 3y ago
      It was my biggest concern about the topic in this thread, which I thought was "how dangerous the left can be" to switch I wanted to reply basically "the left poses no danger except to itself" which honestly was never controversial (look at the subtext Life of Brian, it was always a trope of the lefts). But for some reason you have to frame the whole thing as if I was doing victim blaming. I surely didn't mean that was my absolute biggest concern out of all concerns. Please apply the principle of charity when interpreting other people's words.
      - DonHopkins 3y ago
        The principle of charity says that I should take what you say at face value, which I did. I didn't hold a gun to your head and force you to say "So far the biggest concern I have with the far left". Those were YOUR OWN WORDS. And what evidence do you have of your insidious armchair sociology? Absolutely none. You're just making stuff up, and it justifies blaming women for men becoming rapists as much as it justifies blaming AntiFa for people becoming fascists.
        ithkuil 3y ago
        > the principle of charity or charitable interpretation requires interpreting a speaker's statements in the most rational way possible and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation note that this doesn't mean "at face value".
  - 3y ago

DonHopkins 3y ago

Yes you are blaming anti-fascists, and you completely missed the point. They're not "turning" non-fascist people fascists. You are denying the agency of non-fascist people to decide whether or not to turn fascist themselves. AntiFa does not control them. They're not suddenly becoming fascist against their will, because of somebody else forcing them to. Nobody is forcing non-fascists to make that life choice to become fascist, certainly not anti-fascists. It's completely their own fault that they decided to become fascists. Got it? It is nobody's fault but their own. So stop carrying the water for fascists and putting the blame on other innocent people who oppose them. Did somebody else force you to make your "biggest concern" carrying the water and making excuses for fascists, because you have no control over your own mind and mouth, or did you actually chose to do it yourself? Take some personal responsibility for your own beliefs. What a pathetic and misguided "biggest concern" you have, dude. Those were your own words. So don't do fascists the favor of blaming anti-fascists and victims of fascists for the existence of fascists: they don't deserve your favors and excuses. It's 100% their own fault. Find a better biggest concern. By your own twisted logic, Jews are responsible for anti-semitism. And that's absolute total bullshit.

ithkuil 3y ago
No I think you missed my point. Probably I'm just making a bad job of explaining what I mean. But I also suspect you're been primed to be on the defensive given how many people are attacking liberal values. My point is this: There is a growing rhetoric on the right of center that tries to frame "the left" as this obscure force that all sort of nefarious things. They take examples out if the most fringe corners and use them to fuel their base. Like the guy that insisted to have a litter box in the workplace because he identified as a cat. But none of that shit is a "policy of the left". None of that shit is anything you be worried about. That's my point. There is almost nothing fueled by sincere progressive values that one should be afraid of. The left is not raping babies or whatnot. In that sense, the only strategic mistake that people on the left of center are doing is to feed the trolls on the right. I understand that you're framing this as "well, fuck them, _they_ are the trolls don't blame me for feeding them, I'm the victim don't blame me". But that kind of logic works only when dealing with individuals. Our natural moral instincts are not adapted to dealing with massive societies with hundreds of million of people engaging in an information warfare of an unprecedented scale. Every real fascist out there would be neutered if it wasn't for a number of people who have no clue about anything and are just passively going through their lives just passively following along whatever their social group is nudging them to follow. Denying this fact and claiming that absolutely all people are 100% active political agents that are either 100% fascist or 100% anti-fascist is wishful thinking at best and a dangerous trap at worst. If you want to make the world a better place you need to understand people and find compromises that get most people on board. If you're doing that somebody else will and some will not hesitate to leverage the lowest human instincts such as xenophobia to rally people on their side. I don't want to live in such a world
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  Look, stop blaming the victim for the aggressor's behavior. Women do not force men to be rapists by wearing sexy clothes. Back to the other point: YOU said it's your BIGGEST concern. Those were YOUR words, I did not put them into your mouth. And that's an absolutely ridiculous priority. There are much bigger and more important and real concerns than your logical fallacies about blaming victims for their aggressor's behavior.
  - ithkuil 3y ago
    It was my biggest concern about the topic in this thread, which I thought was "how dangerous the left can be" to switch I wanted to reply basically "the left poses no danger except to itself" which honestly was never controversial (look at the subtext Life of Brian, it was always a trope of the lefts). But for some reason you have to frame the whole thing as if I was doing victim blaming. I surely didn't mean that was my absolute biggest concern out of all concerns. Please apply the principle of charity when interpreting other people's words.
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      The principle of charity says that I should take what you say at face value, which I did. I didn't hold a gun to your head and force you to say "So far the biggest concern I have with the far left". Those were YOUR OWN WORDS. And what evidence do you have of your insidious armchair sociology? Absolutely none. You're just making stuff up, and it justifies blaming women for men becoming rapists as much as it justifies blaming AntiFa for people becoming fascists.
      - ithkuil 3y ago
        > the principle of charity or charitable interpretation requires interpreting a speaker's statements in the most rational way possible and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation note that this doesn't mean "at face value".
- 3y ago