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Classic Stack Overflow, willfully ignores the likely intent of the questioner, with pedantic answers which ignore the most common modern usages of the terms. S

Classic Stack Overflow, willfully ignores the likely intent of the questioner, with pedantic answers which ignore the most common modern usages of the terms. Subtle condescension and authoritative declarations (“a console MUST be a piece of hardware”) which are actually incorrect in modern usage. SO really does attract misanthropes.

corethree 3y ago
A shell is where a turtle lives.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- andirk 3y ago
  A console is what turtle's play video games on.
  - nick222226 3y ago
    tty is when the turtle is talking to you now instead of later
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Tortoise SVN and Tortoise Git like that joke
HPsquared 3y ago
SO is full of people going too narrow, HN is full of people going too broad.
- maegul 3y ago
  Ha, yes. But in HN’s defence, I think HN is not willing and capable of correcting toward narrowness when needed than SO is the other way.
blendergeek 3y ago
Fortunately the top answer doesn't suffer from that issue as far as I can tell. It is much longer and explains both the etymology of the terms and how they are used today.
- khazhoux 3y ago
  But it misses the most obvious answer (and most likely where the question originated from): terminal, console, and shell often refer to the same thing. If one is following a tutorial and it says to “enter this command into your console”, they mean the same as type it in your terminal app or into your shell. The terms are indeed somewhat interchangeable, as a starting point at least for the clearest answer. Then we can dig into actual differences: the shell is actually an application that runs inside the terminal/console, and you can swap in your favorite shell app; on MacOS, the Console and Terminal apps look similar, but Terminal is what you should use normally, with Console more for debugging system outputs. And so on. Humor people with practical answers sometimes, for christsake, instead of these agonzing pendantic expositions. Side notes on pseudo-ttys, ioctl, virtual condoles, and control sequences when the OP posted an elementary question?? Yeah, we get it, professor: you are overburdened with information which you must share.
  - basil-rash 3y ago
    That was already included in the question, there’s no use repeating it in the answer.
  - zzyzxd 3y ago
    Well, the OP already realized that they often refer to the same thing, and was just curious about the fundamental differences. > Side notes on pseudo-ttys, ioctl, virtual condoles, and control sequences when the OP posted an elementary question?? Yeah, we get it, professor: you are overburdened with information which you must share. I don't know if it's elementary but I knew ioctl long before I learned that "tty" stands for teletypewriter. (Top answer: "tty is a strange abbreviation". Me: ha, sure, because if you are curious enough to look up for the abbreviation, the long form itself is pretty much self explanatory). The answer doesn't feel condescending to me. Similarly, my professor talked to me like that when I was a student and I didn't find that condescending -- it's just a person who knows a particular topic better than me trying to make a gentle introduction. If someone not only answered my question, but also voluntarily spent another hour telling me all the background stories, I would have nothing but gratitude. Sure, some of those people may not be the nicest person in the world. if you just need a quick answer and be done, you can ask ChatGPT to summarize it.
charonn0 3y ago
I don't see the problem you do. SO is a Q&A based knowledge base. Questions are supposed to be somewhat open-ended prompts that inspire experts to write detailed and informative responses. The OP seems to be an excellent example this.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  > Questions are supposed to be somewhat open-ended prompts that inspire experts to write detailed and informative responses. > open ended I recently tried asking a question like that. Easy but effective optimization techniques for programming languages. Hell I included an answer myself and was going to add more. The result wasn't pretty. While I was typing up a second answer, the question was downvoted, closed, someone welcomed me to the site and then deleted the comment, the answer I included with the post was downvoted not for being wrong but for "enabling" a bad question, I got told to get out and go blog about it instead and then a few days later the entire thing was deleted like worthless spam.
  - dr_kiszonka 3y ago
    Yikes.
  - realusername 3y ago
    I had the same experience myself, Stackoverflow isn't going down because of AI which they use as a scapegoat but because the community became more and more toxic to the point of no return and there's no blaming others for that.
  - Izkata 3y ago
    > techniques Plural? Obviously that wouldn't be accepted. It should be something that can have a single best answer. Open-ended that allows an expert to expand and explain doesn't mean free-for-all.
    - matheusmoreira 3y ago
      Yes, plural. It was a question similar to this one: https://stackoverflow.com/q/500607 https://stackoverflow.com/q/500607 Some of the greatest questions on StackOverflow are open ended like that. I've gotten people to reverse closures before. They closed a Q&A pair I made on the finance site where I explained how I did something specific with the ledger software. Closed, then reopened with a positive score. Not this time, I guess. I linked that question as an example but it didn't really convince anyone. I was frustrated but eventually I just accepted it, left it alone and went away for a few days. Came back later to find they had just deleted the question along with the one answer I managed to write. That made me feel like shit. Certainly didn't expect that, especially not from a stack exchange site that's still in beta and thus in need of content.
pompino 3y ago
>willfully ignores the likely intent of the questioner, >Subtle condescension and authoritative declarations Well maybe we shouldn't ignore the intent of the answer ;) >SO really does attract misanthropes. Wow, I think you're reading way to much into this.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
I don't know, it wasn't always like this. Stack Exchange communities are very different now, I don't think they're the same sites I used to participate in. Coming back to them now resulted in some very negative experiences, people treated me like some worthless spammer whose posts deserve to not only be closed but also literally deleted. It wasn't always like that.
bazoom42 3y ago
Your comment is entitely unhelpful though. It is everything you accuse the SO answer of being.
mock-possum 3y ago
Yeah the irony of using a browser to post “a console MUST be a piece of hardware” when hitting F12 easily belies the statement is just mind boggling.

corethree 3y ago

A shell is where a turtle lives.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
andirk 3y ago
A console is what turtle's play video games on.
- nick222226 3y ago
  tty is when the turtle is talking to you now instead of later
quickthrower2 3y ago
Tortoise SVN and Tortoise Git like that joke

HPsquared 3y ago

SO is full of people going too narrow, HN is full of people going too broad.

maegul 3y ago
Ha, yes. But in HN’s defence, I think HN is not willing and capable of correcting toward narrowness when needed than SO is the other way.

blendergeek 3y ago

Fortunately the top answer doesn't suffer from that issue as far as I can tell. It is much longer and explains both the etymology of the terms and how they are used today.

khazhoux 3y ago
But it misses the most obvious answer (and most likely where the question originated from): terminal, console, and shell often refer to the same thing. If one is following a tutorial and it says to “enter this command into your console”, they mean the same as type it in your terminal app or into your shell. The terms are indeed somewhat interchangeable, as a starting point at least for the clearest answer. Then we can dig into actual differences: the shell is actually an application that runs inside the terminal/console, and you can swap in your favorite shell app; on MacOS, the Console and Terminal apps look similar, but Terminal is what you should use normally, with Console more for debugging system outputs. And so on. Humor people with practical answers sometimes, for christsake, instead of these agonzing pendantic expositions. Side notes on pseudo-ttys, ioctl, virtual condoles, and control sequences when the OP posted an elementary question?? Yeah, we get it, professor: you are overburdened with information which you must share.
- basil-rash 3y ago
  That was already included in the question, there’s no use repeating it in the answer.
- zzyzxd 3y ago
  Well, the OP already realized that they often refer to the same thing, and was just curious about the fundamental differences. > Side notes on pseudo-ttys, ioctl, virtual condoles, and control sequences when the OP posted an elementary question?? Yeah, we get it, professor: you are overburdened with information which you must share. I don't know if it's elementary but I knew ioctl long before I learned that "tty" stands for teletypewriter. (Top answer: "tty is a strange abbreviation". Me: ha, sure, because if you are curious enough to look up for the abbreviation, the long form itself is pretty much self explanatory). The answer doesn't feel condescending to me. Similarly, my professor talked to me like that when I was a student and I didn't find that condescending -- it's just a person who knows a particular topic better than me trying to make a gentle introduction. If someone not only answered my question, but also voluntarily spent another hour telling me all the background stories, I would have nothing but gratitude. Sure, some of those people may not be the nicest person in the world. if you just need a quick answer and be done, you can ask ChatGPT to summarize it.

charonn0 3y ago

I don't see the problem you do. SO is a Q&A based knowledge base. Questions are supposed to be somewhat open-ended prompts that inspire experts to write detailed and informative responses. The OP seems to be an excellent example this.

matheusmoreira 3y ago
> Questions are supposed to be somewhat open-ended prompts that inspire experts to write detailed and informative responses. > open ended I recently tried asking a question like that. Easy but effective optimization techniques for programming languages. Hell I included an answer myself and was going to add more. The result wasn't pretty. While I was typing up a second answer, the question was downvoted, closed, someone welcomed me to the site and then deleted the comment, the answer I included with the post was downvoted not for being wrong but for "enabling" a bad question, I got told to get out and go blog about it instead and then a few days later the entire thing was deleted like worthless spam.
- dr_kiszonka 3y ago
  Yikes.
- realusername 3y ago
  I had the same experience myself, Stackoverflow isn't going down because of AI which they use as a scapegoat but because the community became more and more toxic to the point of no return and there's no blaming others for that.
- Izkata 3y ago
  > techniques Plural? Obviously that wouldn't be accepted. It should be something that can have a single best answer. Open-ended that allows an expert to expand and explain doesn't mean free-for-all.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    Yes, plural. It was a question similar to this one: https://stackoverflow.com/q/500607 https://stackoverflow.com/q/500607 Some of the greatest questions on StackOverflow are open ended like that. I've gotten people to reverse closures before. They closed a Q&A pair I made on the finance site where I explained how I did something specific with the ledger software. Closed, then reopened with a positive score. Not this time, I guess. I linked that question as an example but it didn't really convince anyone. I was frustrated but eventually I just accepted it, left it alone and went away for a few days. Came back later to find they had just deleted the question along with the one answer I managed to write. That made me feel like shit. Certainly didn't expect that, especially not from a stack exchange site that's still in beta and thus in need of content.

pompino 3y ago

>willfully ignores the likely intent of the questioner, >Subtle condescension and authoritative declarations Well maybe we shouldn't ignore the intent of the answer ;) >SO really does attract misanthropes. Wow, I think you're reading way to much into this.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

I don't know, it wasn't always like this. Stack Exchange communities are very different now, I don't think they're the same sites I used to participate in. Coming back to them now resulted in some very negative experiences, people treated me like some worthless spammer whose posts deserve to not only be closed but also literally deleted. It wasn't always like that.

bazoom42 3y ago

Your comment is entitely unhelpful though. It is everything you accuse the SO answer of being.

mock-possum 3y ago

Yeah the irony of using a browser to post “a console MUST be a piece of hardware” when hitting F12 easily belies the statement is just mind boggling.