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> The smart thing to do if you were going somewhere remote would be to have a Personal locator beacon, PLB, on land; or an EPIRB, emergency position indicating

> The smart thing to do if you were going somewhere remote would be to have a Personal locator beacon, PLB, on land; or an EPIRB, emergency position indicating radio beacon, on ocean. Satphones and cell phones are luxuries but these are vital. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_...

dave78 3y ago
Yes, agreed. I was lumping them together in my head. I think my point still stands that people often get into trouble without cell coverage and without access to a locator or sat phone or whatever, but likely have their regular cell phone with them.
lxgr 3y ago
These are more expensive than many current satellite messengers (including subscription fees for a few years!) and importantly don’t give you any feedback on whether your call has gone through (except for the newest ones using Galileo’s return channel) or way to communicate with the SAR team and specify the nature of your emergency.
- tuatoru 3y ago
  Where I live PLBs have a lower sticker price than the InReach, only require a one-time payment for life, and they have a ten-year battery life. I don't know about EPIRBs or ELTs. You don't need feedback: Search and Rescue WILL send out a team that makes physical contact with you, even if you only turn the thing on for a couple of minutes. Seen this in action here in NZ. They are trained in tracking, too, so you can't hide.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Feedback has been shown to be both very important psychologically in a survival situation. Practically it can also be crucial to know whether your signal went through or whether you should trade shelter for altitude (e.g. when hiking in a narrow ravine with limited sky visibility). Two-way communication and being able to specify the nature of your emergency are invaluable as well. PLBs/EPIRBs definitely have their uses, but I think they shine more in traditional aviation or marine SAR situations where longevity is paramount and it's pretty clear from context what type of help is needed.
    - davidjade 3y ago
      One of the things you learn in taking a SOLAS class (International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea) is that you will most likely not talk with SAR responders even if you have a sat phone. An EPIRB is the primary means of sending a distress call for initiating a SAR response. It’s just the way the rescue system is set up internationally.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        That's really surprising. The GMDSS part of SOLAS requires having at least Inmarsat C at high seas (which is text-only but still bidirectional) or Iridium (for high latitudes, with HF DSC as a backup), as far as I know. That's all on top of EPIRBs. Wouldn't it make sense to use the bidirectional capabilities of these to request specific help, if only after getting out the initial signal through an EPIRB? I can't imagine SAR not being very interested in the nature of your emergency, especially in remote areas. Engine loss in calm waters or a sinking vessel probably require a very different type of response (i.e. another ship for towing vs. a helicopter if possible).
        davidjade 3y ago
        The class I took was for recreational/non-commercial sailing so some of the GMDSS requirements do not apply to those vessels. I’ve done re-certification every 5 years or so. At every class a SAR person has told us to not expect them to make contact over a sat phone. Now who they will contact first are your EPIRB contacts and ask for your float plan, vessel description, etc. Maybe it is because they don’t want people to have just a sat phone or InReach and believe they’re good to go. People seem to regularly be unable to tell SAR where they are even if they have a GPS onboard. I’ve witnessed this just listening to VHF request for assistance in inland waters many times in the Pacific Northwest.
eternityforest 3y ago
PLBs are not cheap, used ones cost at least $100, 100x more than most people are willing to spend on safety (How many people have no emergency water at home?). I don't understand how anyone could regularly go hiking out of cell range without one though. Some commenters seem to actively like being that disconnected I suppose.
- tjohns 3y ago
  People went hiking for centuries before satellite messengers were a thing. The fact is, calling for help via satellite while in the backcountry is often a 12-24 response time. Sending another person in your party back to civilization to call for help is also a viable option. Anything more time sensitive than that and outside help is unlikely to arrive in time. The most important thing is to travel in a group, and make sure somebody in your group knows first aid and basic survival skills. I highly recommend taking a Wilderness First Aid course. (I carry a PLB myself, but I would not consider lack of one a reason to avoid doing outdoor activities.)
  - eternityforest 3y ago
    They did, but people have probably also avoided certain areas if possible, because it's scary to be on your own, since before we even had a concept of hiking or any kind of civilization to want to take a break from. As I understand it, just plain old getting lost is kind of a big deal, and one of the things I'd be most afraid of if I regularly went out alone or with people who weren't far better at navigating than me(Which is nearly 100% of my friends...). If you are near any water that probably won't kill you for several days.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mynameisnoone 3y ago
Yep. 2 is 1, 1 is none. If you're going to the middle of nowhere[0] or routinely transit areas with spotty coverage, are you really going to trust a brand-new feature of a $1399 USD iPhone and not also have a ~$370 PLB as a backup? It defies common sense that such a feature would permit the omission of a survival mindset. 0. https://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/remote-spot-ranking/ https://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/remote-spot-rank...

dave78 3y ago

Yes, agreed. I was lumping them together in my head. I think my point still stands that people often get into trouble without cell coverage and without access to a locator or sat phone or whatever, but likely have their regular cell phone with them.

lxgr 3y ago

These are more expensive than many current satellite messengers (including subscription fees for a few years!) and importantly don’t give you any feedback on whether your call has gone through (except for the newest ones using Galileo’s return channel) or way to communicate with the SAR team and specify the nature of your emergency.

tuatoru 3y ago
Where I live PLBs have a lower sticker price than the InReach, only require a one-time payment for life, and they have a ten-year battery life. I don't know about EPIRBs or ELTs. You don't need feedback: Search and Rescue WILL send out a team that makes physical contact with you, even if you only turn the thing on for a couple of minutes. Seen this in action here in NZ. They are trained in tracking, too, so you can't hide.
- lxgr 3y ago
  Feedback has been shown to be both very important psychologically in a survival situation. Practically it can also be crucial to know whether your signal went through or whether you should trade shelter for altitude (e.g. when hiking in a narrow ravine with limited sky visibility). Two-way communication and being able to specify the nature of your emergency are invaluable as well. PLBs/EPIRBs definitely have their uses, but I think they shine more in traditional aviation or marine SAR situations where longevity is paramount and it's pretty clear from context what type of help is needed.
  - davidjade 3y ago
    One of the things you learn in taking a SOLAS class (International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea) is that you will most likely not talk with SAR responders even if you have a sat phone. An EPIRB is the primary means of sending a distress call for initiating a SAR response. It’s just the way the rescue system is set up internationally.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      That's really surprising. The GMDSS part of SOLAS requires having at least Inmarsat C at high seas (which is text-only but still bidirectional) or Iridium (for high latitudes, with HF DSC as a backup), as far as I know. That's all on top of EPIRBs. Wouldn't it make sense to use the bidirectional capabilities of these to request specific help, if only after getting out the initial signal through an EPIRB? I can't imagine SAR not being very interested in the nature of your emergency, especially in remote areas. Engine loss in calm waters or a sinking vessel probably require a very different type of response (i.e. another ship for towing vs. a helicopter if possible).
      - davidjade 3y ago
        The class I took was for recreational/non-commercial sailing so some of the GMDSS requirements do not apply to those vessels. I’ve done re-certification every 5 years or so. At every class a SAR person has told us to not expect them to make contact over a sat phone. Now who they will contact first are your EPIRB contacts and ask for your float plan, vessel description, etc. Maybe it is because they don’t want people to have just a sat phone or InReach and believe they’re good to go. People seem to regularly be unable to tell SAR where they are even if they have a GPS onboard. I’ve witnessed this just listening to VHF request for assistance in inland waters many times in the Pacific Northwest.

eternityforest 3y ago

PLBs are not cheap, used ones cost at least $100, 100x more than most people are willing to spend on safety (How many people have no emergency water at home?). I don't understand how anyone could regularly go hiking out of cell range without one though. Some commenters seem to actively like being that disconnected I suppose.

tjohns 3y ago
People went hiking for centuries before satellite messengers were a thing. The fact is, calling for help via satellite while in the backcountry is often a 12-24 response time. Sending another person in your party back to civilization to call for help is also a viable option. Anything more time sensitive than that and outside help is unlikely to arrive in time. The most important thing is to travel in a group, and make sure somebody in your group knows first aid and basic survival skills. I highly recommend taking a Wilderness First Aid course. (I carry a PLB myself, but I would not consider lack of one a reason to avoid doing outdoor activities.)
- eternityforest 3y ago
  They did, but people have probably also avoided certain areas if possible, because it's scary to be on your own, since before we even had a concept of hiking or any kind of civilization to want to take a break from. As I understand it, just plain old getting lost is kind of a big deal, and one of the things I'd be most afraid of if I regularly went out alone or with people who weren't far better at navigating than me(Which is nearly 100% of my friends...). If you are near any water that probably won't kill you for several days.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mynameisnoone 3y ago

Yep. 2 is 1, 1 is none. If you're going to the middle of nowhere[0] or routinely transit areas with spotty coverage, are you really going to trust a brand-new feature of a $1399 USD iPhone and not also have a ~$370 PLB as a backup? It defies common sense that such a feature would permit the omission of a survival mindset. 0. https://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/remote-spot-ranking/ https://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/remote-spot-rank...