4 ms·

There are huge portions of the USA that have no cell coverage. Often the kinds of places that people go to hike and explore - and also places that people someti

by dave78 3y ago

There are huge portions of the USA that have no cell coverage. Often the kinds of places that people go to hike and explore - and also places that people sometimes get injured. I'm sure that's true in many other countries as well. I know people who volunteer for search & rescue teams, and they all universally believe that this kind of thing definitely will save lives. The smart thing to do if you were going somewhere remote would be to have a sat phone. But, 1) they cost money, 2) we know there's a lot of people that don't think ahead or think that bad things will happen to them and 3) a lot of people are simply ignorant about the lack of cell coverage in these places, and just assume they'll be able to call for help if they need it. By the time they figure out that they were wrong about the coverage, they're too committed to turn around and go back.

tuatoru 3y ago
> The smart thing to do if you were going somewhere remote would be to have a Personal locator beacon, PLB, on land; or an EPIRB, emergency position indicating radio beacon, on ocean. Satphones and cell phones are luxuries but these are vital. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_...
- dave78 3y ago
  Yes, agreed. I was lumping them together in my head. I think my point still stands that people often get into trouble without cell coverage and without access to a locator or sat phone or whatever, but likely have their regular cell phone with them.
- lxgr 3y ago
  These are more expensive than many current satellite messengers (including subscription fees for a few years!) and importantly don’t give you any feedback on whether your call has gone through (except for the newest ones using Galileo’s return channel) or way to communicate with the SAR team and specify the nature of your emergency.
  - tuatoru 3y ago
    Where I live PLBs have a lower sticker price than the InReach, only require a one-time payment for life, and they have a ten-year battery life. I don't know about EPIRBs or ELTs. You don't need feedback: Search and Rescue WILL send out a team that makes physical contact with you, even if you only turn the thing on for a couple of minutes. Seen this in action here in NZ. They are trained in tracking, too, so you can't hide.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      Feedback has been shown to be both very important psychologically in a survival situation. Practically it can also be crucial to know whether your signal went through or whether you should trade shelter for altitude (e.g. when hiking in a narrow ravine with limited sky visibility). Two-way communication and being able to specify the nature of your emergency are invaluable as well. PLBs/EPIRBs definitely have their uses, but I think they shine more in traditional aviation or marine SAR situations where longevity is paramount and it's pretty clear from context what type of help is needed.
      - davidjade 3y ago
        One of the things you learn in taking a SOLAS class (International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea) is that you will most likely not talk with SAR responders even if you have a sat phone. An EPIRB is the primary means of sending a distress call for initiating a SAR response. It’s just the way the rescue system is set up internationally.
        lxgr 3y ago
        That's really surprising. The GMDSS part of SOLAS requires having at least Inmarsat C at high seas (which is text-only but still bidirectional) or Iridium (for high latitudes, with HF DSC as a backup), as far as I know. That's all on top of EPIRBs. Wouldn't it make sense to use the bidirectional capabilities of these to request specific help, if only after getting out the initial signal through an EPIRB? I can't imagine SAR not being very interested in the nature of your emergency, especially in remote areas. Engine loss in calm waters or a sinking vessel probably require a very different type of response (i.e. another ship for towing vs. a helicopter if possible).
- eternityforest 3y ago
  PLBs are not cheap, used ones cost at least $100, 100x more than most people are willing to spend on safety (How many people have no emergency water at home?). I don't understand how anyone could regularly go hiking out of cell range without one though. Some commenters seem to actively like being that disconnected I suppose.
  - tjohns 3y ago
    People went hiking for centuries before satellite messengers were a thing. The fact is, calling for help via satellite while in the backcountry is often a 12-24 response time. Sending another person in your party back to civilization to call for help is also a viable option. Anything more time sensitive than that and outside help is unlikely to arrive in time. The most important thing is to travel in a group, and make sure somebody in your group knows first aid and basic survival skills. I highly recommend taking a Wilderness First Aid course. (I carry a PLB myself, but I would not consider lack of one a reason to avoid doing outdoor activities.)
    - eternityforest 3y ago
      They did, but people have probably also avoided certain areas if possible, because it's scary to be on your own, since before we even had a concept of hiking or any kind of civilization to want to take a break from. As I understand it, just plain old getting lost is kind of a big deal, and one of the things I'd be most afraid of if I regularly went out alone or with people who weren't far better at navigating than me(Which is nearly 100% of my friends...). If you are near any water that probably won't kill you for several days.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mynameisnoone 3y ago
  Yep. 2 is 1, 1 is none. If you're going to the middle of nowhere[0] or routinely transit areas with spotty coverage, are you really going to trust a brand-new feature of a $1399 USD iPhone and not also have a ~$370 PLB as a backup? It defies common sense that such a feature would permit the omission of a survival mindset. 0. https://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/remote-spot-ranking/ https://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/remote-spot-rank...
Blahah 3y ago
I agree it will also be impactful in the US. Just saying not in Antarctica, where all 50 annual visitors already have a sat phone

by dave78 3y ago

tuatoru 3y ago

> The smart thing to do if you were going somewhere remote would be to have a Personal locator beacon, PLB, on land; or an EPIRB, emergency position indicating radio beacon, on ocean. Satphones and cell phones are luxuries but these are vital. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_radiobeacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_position-indicating_...

dave78 3y ago
Yes, agreed. I was lumping them together in my head. I think my point still stands that people often get into trouble without cell coverage and without access to a locator or sat phone or whatever, but likely have their regular cell phone with them.
lxgr 3y ago
These are more expensive than many current satellite messengers (including subscription fees for a few years!) and importantly don’t give you any feedback on whether your call has gone through (except for the newest ones using Galileo’s return channel) or way to communicate with the SAR team and specify the nature of your emergency.
- tuatoru 3y ago
  Where I live PLBs have a lower sticker price than the InReach, only require a one-time payment for life, and they have a ten-year battery life. I don't know about EPIRBs or ELTs. You don't need feedback: Search and Rescue WILL send out a team that makes physical contact with you, even if you only turn the thing on for a couple of minutes. Seen this in action here in NZ. They are trained in tracking, too, so you can't hide.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Feedback has been shown to be both very important psychologically in a survival situation. Practically it can also be crucial to know whether your signal went through or whether you should trade shelter for altitude (e.g. when hiking in a narrow ravine with limited sky visibility). Two-way communication and being able to specify the nature of your emergency are invaluable as well. PLBs/EPIRBs definitely have their uses, but I think they shine more in traditional aviation or marine SAR situations where longevity is paramount and it's pretty clear from context what type of help is needed.
    - davidjade 3y ago
      One of the things you learn in taking a SOLAS class (International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea) is that you will most likely not talk with SAR responders even if you have a sat phone. An EPIRB is the primary means of sending a distress call for initiating a SAR response. It’s just the way the rescue system is set up internationally.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        That's really surprising. The GMDSS part of SOLAS requires having at least Inmarsat C at high seas (which is text-only but still bidirectional) or Iridium (for high latitudes, with HF DSC as a backup), as far as I know. That's all on top of EPIRBs. Wouldn't it make sense to use the bidirectional capabilities of these to request specific help, if only after getting out the initial signal through an EPIRB? I can't imagine SAR not being very interested in the nature of your emergency, especially in remote areas. Engine loss in calm waters or a sinking vessel probably require a very different type of response (i.e. another ship for towing vs. a helicopter if possible).
eternityforest 3y ago
PLBs are not cheap, used ones cost at least $100, 100x more than most people are willing to spend on safety (How many people have no emergency water at home?). I don't understand how anyone could regularly go hiking out of cell range without one though. Some commenters seem to actively like being that disconnected I suppose.
- tjohns 3y ago
  People went hiking for centuries before satellite messengers were a thing. The fact is, calling for help via satellite while in the backcountry is often a 12-24 response time. Sending another person in your party back to civilization to call for help is also a viable option. Anything more time sensitive than that and outside help is unlikely to arrive in time. The most important thing is to travel in a group, and make sure somebody in your group knows first aid and basic survival skills. I highly recommend taking a Wilderness First Aid course. (I carry a PLB myself, but I would not consider lack of one a reason to avoid doing outdoor activities.)
  - eternityforest 3y ago
    They did, but people have probably also avoided certain areas if possible, because it's scary to be on your own, since before we even had a concept of hiking or any kind of civilization to want to take a break from. As I understand it, just plain old getting lost is kind of a big deal, and one of the things I'd be most afraid of if I regularly went out alone or with people who weren't far better at navigating than me(Which is nearly 100% of my friends...). If you are near any water that probably won't kill you for several days.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mynameisnoone 3y ago
Yep. 2 is 1, 1 is none. If you're going to the middle of nowhere[0] or routinely transit areas with spotty coverage, are you really going to trust a brand-new feature of a $1399 USD iPhone and not also have a ~$370 PLB as a backup? It defies common sense that such a feature would permit the omission of a survival mindset. 0. https://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/remote-spot-ranking/ https://remotefootprints.org/project-remote/remote-spot-rank...

Blahah 3y ago

I agree it will also be impactful in the US. Just saying not in Antarctica, where all 50 annual visitors already have a sat phone