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From what I can see, many of wannabe camp guards claim very loudly and aggressively to be anti fascist. But you better not question their ideals or beliefs or

From what I can see, many of wannabe camp guards claim very loudly and aggressively to be anti fascist. But you better not question their ideals or beliefs or you're a nazi and "it's always morally ok to kill nazis", their words, not mine. What scares me is that it seems like actually believe these people when they say they are the anti-fascists. To me they're just goose steppers of another stripe.

peterfirefly 3y ago
People like this scare me: https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/04/the-hardest-thing-about-hiring-is-avoiding-the-fash https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/04/the-hardest-thing-a...
- mtrower 3y ago
  He started out with an unpopular but semi-interesting viewpoint, then immediately went down the rabbit hole to somewhere terrifying. Notice how he deleted a bunch of comments (perhaps justifiably, but who can say now...) and then closed comments. How dare anyone disagree with him...
somewhereoutth 3y ago
The far left are just as problematic as the far right, but the clear and present danger we are facing now is not from the far left - it wasn't them who stormed the Capitol. Edit: perhaps someone can explain to me the clear and present danger from the far left?
- krapp 3y ago
  >The far left are just as problematic as the far right No, they aren't. It is virtually impossible for the far left to become as problematic as the far right, because the right wing in the US intersects with the vast cultural and financial power of the gun lobby and conservative Christianity, whereas the left is primarily composed of minority groups systemically oppressed and disenfranchised by the system. Unless you can drape your message in the iconography of the flag and the cross you can't have real power in American politics. That's baked in, down to the electoral college, which is designed to give rural American (more likely to be right-leaning) votes more power than urban (more likely to be left-leaning) votes so as to preserve the status quo, which is white, Conservative, capitalist and Christian. Every left-wing movement in the US has been infiltrated, undermined and eventually crushed by the right. Occupy no longer exists. BLM no longer exists. Go back to the 60s - MLK, Malcolm X, the Black Panthers, Weather Underground. Bernie, the closest thing the US has to a mainstream socialist, was quickly swept aside by his own, supposedly "leftist" party, meanwhile Trump is still the frontrunner to win in 2024 and QAnon is still a viable political and cultural movement. Native Americans protesting pipelines get beaten, white Americans showing up to the White House with guns and Nazi flags get welcomed in. Show me an anti-war protest in the US that mattered. Vietnam, Iraq, Israel, Americans protesting in the millions, all definitionally "leftist." none of it mattered. I mean, I wish the far left were just as problematic. At least then we would live in a somewhat equitable society where all political points of view had equal weight, an actual marketplace of ideas. But we don't, and really the only place the left is allowed to exist without facing the violence of the state is online, where it does far more harm to itself with endless infighting, purity spirals and factionism than to the system it opposes.
  - dgfitz 3y ago
    As soon as the far-$party figures out they “win” when moving more towards the center, is when the 2-party system implodes. Fortunately, far too many people in “power” have ego problems for this to ever actually become a problem. Until then, we will continue to get action/reaction like has happened in American politics for the past few cycles.
  - bequanna 3y ago
    > Occupy no longer exists. BLM no longer exists. Are you implying those groups were infiltrated and sabotaged by the alt right baddies and that is why they failed?
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      Whether or not that’s true, I think it does support the claim that the far left is not as dangerous as far right groups of similar popularity - the latter appear to endure for much longer and have much more political impact.
    - krapp 3y ago
      Not by the "alt-right baddies" per se, but the history of infiltration against "subversive" groups by American law enforcement and intelligence - in particular against black activist groups - is long and well documented. When it comes to leftist activism in the US I assume COINTELPRO by default. Similar effort against right-wing groups is more limited and politically difficult because such groups would be considered militias protected by the Second Amendment. It's much easier to get away with suppressing left-wing speech than right-wing violence in the US. - https://www.nlg.org/cointelpro-disrupting-resistance-movements-in-the-digital-age/ https://www.nlg.org/cointelpro-disrupting-resistance-movemen... - https://www.democracynow.org/2023/2/7/alphabet_boys_podcast_fbi_subterfuge https://www.democracynow.org/2023/2/7/alphabet_boys_podcast_...
whynotminot 3y ago
Kill you with what? A butter knife? The far left has crazies. The far right has crazies with guns.
- horeszko 3y ago
  > Kill you with what? A butter knife? The far left has crazies. The far right has crazies with guns. History has shown time and again that when motivated it is not difficult for any side to acquire arms. So your comparison is irrelevant in that as soon as someone wants arms they will acquire them. Ultimately crazies are dangerous either way. It is dangerous to underestimate them or to say one crazy is better than another crazy. Comparing crazies is like saying one poison is healthier than another. Poison is poison.
  - whynotminot 3y ago
    > Ultimately crazies are dangerous either way. 100% true, but false equivalence can cause you to mis-prioritize a more pressing danger. People on the right are worried about the crazies on the left canceling them for using the wrong pronoun. People on every other part of the spectrum are worried about the far right literally ending our democracy. To be clear this is not hyperbole. Just watch a Trump rally these days—he has upped the rhetoric, even for him, to an alarming degree. And it’s met with the frothing cheers of his followers.
    - roenxi 3y ago
      > People on the right are worried about the crazies on the left canceling them for using the wrong pronoun. No, they're worried about crazies with guns too. Eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_baseball_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_baseball_shootin... was a left wing activist targeting Republicans.
      - whynotminot 3y ago
        Maybe the people on the right could start legislating some gun control, then. The “crazies” on the left would support it.
pharmakom 3y ago
Is there good evidence behind this view? I don’t mean to be rude, but I’ve only seen it from reactionary commentators and right-leaning news outlets.
- logicchains 3y ago
  Did you not see antifa going around attacking people and buildings in the 2020 George Floyd riots?
  - lukeschlather 3y ago
    I saw them attack empty buildings, I never saw them attack people. I did see people attack antifa, and antifa did not fight back.
    - roenxi 3y ago
      Does posterity record what fascist ideologies the buildings subscribed to?
      - lukeschlather 3y ago
        Well, actually I've only witnessed one attack on a building. It was a temporary portable office at the construction site for a jail for children. So imprisoning children was the ideology ascribed to the building.
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      I seem to remember a pretty high profile shooting which involved several antifa people attacking someone and being shot in retaliation. The trial was also very high profile and ruled in the defendant's favor that he acted in justified self defense. Many people seem to disagree with the ruling on emotional grounds though.
- atq2119 3y ago
  I think the view may technically be true, though of course the term "many" is very squishy. The best evidence for this is probably that (in countries with multiparty systems) you can often see surprisingly strong voter movement between the extreme parties. That said, to think that this matters is pretty nuts. In the entire western world today, the structural environment on the extreme left is strongly opposed to the idea of campus, while on the extreme right the idea is welcomed by a critical mass. In other words, the left polices itself. The right doesn't.
ithkuil 3y ago
So far the biggest concern I have with the far left is the effect it has in energizing and polarizing and uniting the whole right of center
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  If that's really your biggest concern, then you'd better find some bigger and better ones, because it's trivial and ridiculous. Stop trying to blame anti-fascists for fascists acting like fascists. They do that anyway, no matter what, and they'd do it even more if there was no opposition keeping them in check. If you want to speak for yourself about why you're inspired to fascism, then just do that, but stop making excuses and carrying the water for other fascists. Trump has energized and polarized and united the whole right of center a hell of a lot more than AntiFa. Just because he was a Democrat for longer than he was a Republican doesn't mean he's the far left's fault.
  - ithkuil 3y ago
    I'm not blaming anti-fascists. We need more anti-fascist people in the world not less. I'm blaming lunatics who happen to also be anti-fascists (or claim to be) that are turning non-fascist people fascists.
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      Yes you are blaming anti-fascists, and you completely missed the point. They're not "turning" non-fascist people fascists. You are denying the agency of non-fascist people to decide whether or not to turn fascist themselves. AntiFa does not control them. They're not suddenly becoming fascist against their will, because of somebody else forcing them to. Nobody is forcing non-fascists to make that life choice to become fascist, certainly not anti-fascists. It's completely their own fault that they decided to become fascists. Got it? It is nobody's fault but their own. So stop carrying the water for fascists and putting the blame on other innocent people who oppose them. Did somebody else force you to make your "biggest concern" carrying the water and making excuses for fascists, because you have no control over your own mind and mouth, or did you actually chose to do it yourself? Take some personal responsibility for your own beliefs. What a pathetic and misguided "biggest concern" you have, dude. Those were your own words. So don't do fascists the favor of blaming anti-fascists and victims of fascists for the existence of fascists: they don't deserve your favors and excuses. It's 100% their own fault. Find a better biggest concern. By your own twisted logic, Jews are responsible for anti-semitism. And that's absolute total bullshit.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
Yes. Authoritarianism is very much alive and it's very often found in the most "virtuous" of people. People who believe they are right and just are capable of anything. The truth is people want acceptable targets they can lash out against with no consequences and feel justified in doing so.

peterfirefly 3y ago

People like this scare me: https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/04/the-hardest-thing-about-hiring-is-avoiding-the-fash https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/04/the-hardest-thing-a...

mtrower 3y ago
He started out with an unpopular but semi-interesting viewpoint, then immediately went down the rabbit hole to somewhere terrifying. Notice how he deleted a bunch of comments (perhaps justifiably, but who can say now...) and then closed comments. How dare anyone disagree with him...

somewhereoutth 3y ago

The far left are just as problematic as the far right, but the clear and present danger we are facing now is not from the far left - it wasn't them who stormed the Capitol. Edit: perhaps someone can explain to me the clear and present danger from the far left?

krapp 3y ago
>The far left are just as problematic as the far right No, they aren't. It is virtually impossible for the far left to become as problematic as the far right, because the right wing in the US intersects with the vast cultural and financial power of the gun lobby and conservative Christianity, whereas the left is primarily composed of minority groups systemically oppressed and disenfranchised by the system. Unless you can drape your message in the iconography of the flag and the cross you can't have real power in American politics. That's baked in, down to the electoral college, which is designed to give rural American (more likely to be right-leaning) votes more power than urban (more likely to be left-leaning) votes so as to preserve the status quo, which is white, Conservative, capitalist and Christian. Every left-wing movement in the US has been infiltrated, undermined and eventually crushed by the right. Occupy no longer exists. BLM no longer exists. Go back to the 60s - MLK, Malcolm X, the Black Panthers, Weather Underground. Bernie, the closest thing the US has to a mainstream socialist, was quickly swept aside by his own, supposedly "leftist" party, meanwhile Trump is still the frontrunner to win in 2024 and QAnon is still a viable political and cultural movement. Native Americans protesting pipelines get beaten, white Americans showing up to the White House with guns and Nazi flags get welcomed in. Show me an anti-war protest in the US that mattered. Vietnam, Iraq, Israel, Americans protesting in the millions, all definitionally "leftist." none of it mattered. I mean, I wish the far left were just as problematic. At least then we would live in a somewhat equitable society where all political points of view had equal weight, an actual marketplace of ideas. But we don't, and really the only place the left is allowed to exist without facing the violence of the state is online, where it does far more harm to itself with endless infighting, purity spirals and factionism than to the system it opposes.
- dgfitz 3y ago
  As soon as the far-$party figures out they “win” when moving more towards the center, is when the 2-party system implodes. Fortunately, far too many people in “power” have ego problems for this to ever actually become a problem. Until then, we will continue to get action/reaction like has happened in American politics for the past few cycles.
- bequanna 3y ago
  > Occupy no longer exists. BLM no longer exists. Are you implying those groups were infiltrated and sabotaged by the alt right baddies and that is why they failed?
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    Whether or not that’s true, I think it does support the claim that the far left is not as dangerous as far right groups of similar popularity - the latter appear to endure for much longer and have much more political impact.
  - krapp 3y ago
    Not by the "alt-right baddies" per se, but the history of infiltration against "subversive" groups by American law enforcement and intelligence - in particular against black activist groups - is long and well documented. When it comes to leftist activism in the US I assume COINTELPRO by default. Similar effort against right-wing groups is more limited and politically difficult because such groups would be considered militias protected by the Second Amendment. It's much easier to get away with suppressing left-wing speech than right-wing violence in the US. - https://www.nlg.org/cointelpro-disrupting-resistance-movements-in-the-digital-age/ https://www.nlg.org/cointelpro-disrupting-resistance-movemen... - https://www.democracynow.org/2023/2/7/alphabet_boys_podcast_fbi_subterfuge https://www.democracynow.org/2023/2/7/alphabet_boys_podcast_...

whynotminot 3y ago

Kill you with what? A butter knife? The far left has crazies. The far right has crazies with guns.

horeszko 3y ago
> Kill you with what? A butter knife? The far left has crazies. The far right has crazies with guns. History has shown time and again that when motivated it is not difficult for any side to acquire arms. So your comparison is irrelevant in that as soon as someone wants arms they will acquire them. Ultimately crazies are dangerous either way. It is dangerous to underestimate them or to say one crazy is better than another crazy. Comparing crazies is like saying one poison is healthier than another. Poison is poison.
- whynotminot 3y ago
  > Ultimately crazies are dangerous either way. 100% true, but false equivalence can cause you to mis-prioritize a more pressing danger. People on the right are worried about the crazies on the left canceling them for using the wrong pronoun. People on every other part of the spectrum are worried about the far right literally ending our democracy. To be clear this is not hyperbole. Just watch a Trump rally these days—he has upped the rhetoric, even for him, to an alarming degree. And it’s met with the frothing cheers of his followers.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    > People on the right are worried about the crazies on the left canceling them for using the wrong pronoun. No, they're worried about crazies with guns too. Eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_baseball_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_baseball_shootin... was a left wing activist targeting Republicans.
    - whynotminot 3y ago
      Maybe the people on the right could start legislating some gun control, then. The “crazies” on the left would support it.

pharmakom 3y ago

Is there good evidence behind this view? I don’t mean to be rude, but I’ve only seen it from reactionary commentators and right-leaning news outlets.

logicchains 3y ago
Did you not see antifa going around attacking people and buildings in the 2020 George Floyd riots?
- lukeschlather 3y ago
  I saw them attack empty buildings, I never saw them attack people. I did see people attack antifa, and antifa did not fight back.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    Does posterity record what fascist ideologies the buildings subscribed to?
    - lukeschlather 3y ago
      Well, actually I've only witnessed one attack on a building. It was a temporary portable office at the construction site for a jail for children. So imprisoning children was the ideology ascribed to the building.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    I seem to remember a pretty high profile shooting which involved several antifa people attacking someone and being shot in retaliation. The trial was also very high profile and ruled in the defendant's favor that he acted in justified self defense. Many people seem to disagree with the ruling on emotional grounds though.
atq2119 3y ago
I think the view may technically be true, though of course the term "many" is very squishy. The best evidence for this is probably that (in countries with multiparty systems) you can often see surprisingly strong voter movement between the extreme parties. That said, to think that this matters is pretty nuts. In the entire western world today, the structural environment on the extreme left is strongly opposed to the idea of campus, while on the extreme right the idea is welcomed by a critical mass. In other words, the left polices itself. The right doesn't.

ithkuil 3y ago

So far the biggest concern I have with the far left is the effect it has in energizing and polarizing and uniting the whole right of center

DonHopkins 3y ago
If that's really your biggest concern, then you'd better find some bigger and better ones, because it's trivial and ridiculous. Stop trying to blame anti-fascists for fascists acting like fascists. They do that anyway, no matter what, and they'd do it even more if there was no opposition keeping them in check. If you want to speak for yourself about why you're inspired to fascism, then just do that, but stop making excuses and carrying the water for other fascists. Trump has energized and polarized and united the whole right of center a hell of a lot more than AntiFa. Just because he was a Democrat for longer than he was a Republican doesn't mean he's the far left's fault.
- ithkuil 3y ago
  I'm not blaming anti-fascists. We need more anti-fascist people in the world not less. I'm blaming lunatics who happen to also be anti-fascists (or claim to be) that are turning non-fascist people fascists.
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    Yes you are blaming anti-fascists, and you completely missed the point. They're not "turning" non-fascist people fascists. You are denying the agency of non-fascist people to decide whether or not to turn fascist themselves. AntiFa does not control them. They're not suddenly becoming fascist against their will, because of somebody else forcing them to. Nobody is forcing non-fascists to make that life choice to become fascist, certainly not anti-fascists. It's completely their own fault that they decided to become fascists. Got it? It is nobody's fault but their own. So stop carrying the water for fascists and putting the blame on other innocent people who oppose them. Did somebody else force you to make your "biggest concern" carrying the water and making excuses for fascists, because you have no control over your own mind and mouth, or did you actually chose to do it yourself? Take some personal responsibility for your own beliefs. What a pathetic and misguided "biggest concern" you have, dude. Those were your own words. So don't do fascists the favor of blaming anti-fascists and victims of fascists for the existence of fascists: they don't deserve your favors and excuses. It's 100% their own fault. Find a better biggest concern. By your own twisted logic, Jews are responsible for anti-semitism. And that's absolute total bullshit.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

Yes. Authoritarianism is very much alive and it's very often found in the most "virtuous" of people. People who believe they are right and just are capable of anything. The truth is people want acceptable targets they can lash out against with no consequences and feel justified in doing so.