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On dating websites women mostly target the top 10% in terms of looks and attractiveness. That suggests kindness isn't high on their wishlist. However, getting

On dating websites women mostly target the top 10% in terms of looks and attractiveness. That suggests kindness isn't high on their wishlist. However, getting yourself a dog and going for morning runs does get you approached by eligible women, so I guess it depends on the social context.

Jensson 3y ago
> However, getting yourself a dog and going morning runs does get you approached by eligible women, so I guess it depends on the social context. Women want men who are reliable, having a dog and exercising regularly signals reliability. This has nothing to do with kindness. The biggest problem with incels is that they struggle with their life in general. Toxic guys with a well put together life doesn't have issues getting women, as you say just exercise regularly and keep a dog and have other such signals and women will come to you.
- sergiomattei 3y ago
  And it’s not even about women. This just applies to anyone looking for a romantic partner. Who doesn’t want all of those traits? They’re the whole package. People have standards, and it seems so-called incels aren’t comfortable with that.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    Women who aren't reliable have no problems getting guys, so no it isn't the same for both sides. > Who doesn’t want all of those traits? Sure, but we are talking about preferences, men prioritizes other traits even though they of course would like to have the perfect woman.
    - sergiomattei 3y ago
      In my anecdotal experience, I chalk it down to inexperience. After a couple of unsuccessful committed relationships, people get their standards in place. It’s hard to imagine healthy adults want to date unreliable individuals romantically. I don’t think it’s a gendered issue.
      - Jensson 3y ago
        The reason doesn't matter, the end result is that unreliable women doesn't have issues getting guys as long as they are nice and not obese. Ditzy women is a popular trope for a reason.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Incels are often that way because they don’t actually have standards/know how to mind their boundaries with women, know they’ll get fucked over because of it (and likely already were by one close to them - Mom) and are afraid to let anyone close enough to find that out. So sabotage themselves constantly and project that internalized anger into others.
sergiomattei 3y ago
Source for that first sentence? It’s a common trope, seems to emanate from the “red pill” community. From what I’ve heard, it came from a (flawed) study performed by some dating app. I don’t buy it.
- lazide 3y ago
  Reference to the flaws? Decades ago, I worked for a dating website - and it lined up with the reality in the ground based on what I saw, except the study actually seemed to be softpedaling the actual data. And I saw the constants used to fudge the public numbers at the site I worked at, so dudes weren’t so depressed they ran away. Something like FEMALE_COUNT_MULTIPLIER = 9 if I remember correctly.
  - sergiomattei 3y ago
    Isn’t the ratio between men and women on these apps a problem that messes up the interpretation of these observations? Genuinely curious.
    - lazide 3y ago
      Which interpretation? And which sites? Most sites even back then were using generated female profiles to fill things out; and bots to create some messages for male customers who were ‘not engaged enough’. None of that (or total numbers multiplication) was necessary for female members. It seemed to get much worse after I left the industry - it was sleazy back then, and it seems to have gotten waaaay worse over time. Not surprising really.
Detrytus 3y ago
Women use dating apps to find casual sex, so obviously they go for looks. For real, long-term relationship they typically chose someone among their friends.
more_corn 3y ago
Or that dating apps are a terrible way for people to go about dating.
abathur 3y ago
I'm not sure how much meaningful information about "kindness" can fit in the signal a dating app/website tends to carry? Like, we could probably study dating websites and conclude that having a pleasant voice isn't high on most people's wish list, but I imagine a fair fraction won't keep dating someone if they find their voice grating.
eapressoandcats 3y ago
Dating sites put a massive thumb on the scale to looks, probably to everyone’s detriment in the long run. Looks become less important if you know someone through work, or your friends set you up, or you meet at an activity.
- danenania 3y ago
  I think it's also because dating sites give relatively high signal on looks and low signal on personality/chemistry. People don't necessarily filter by looks on dating sites because looks is what matters most to them, but because looks is the only dimension they have reliable enough information available to filter on. Imagine a 1-10 scale for looks, personality, and chemistry, and imagine that a person has some minimum sum that they're looking for--say they want at least a 20 across these three categories. If dating sites give you an accurate read on looks to within 2 points, personality within 4 points, and chemistry within 6 points, then the fastest and most reliable strategy to achieve the 20 would be to filter first by looks on the dating app, then filter the other qualities in person where you can get a better measure.

Jensson 3y ago

> However, getting yourself a dog and going morning runs does get you approached by eligible women, so I guess it depends on the social context. Women want men who are reliable, having a dog and exercising regularly signals reliability. This has nothing to do with kindness. The biggest problem with incels is that they struggle with their life in general. Toxic guys with a well put together life doesn't have issues getting women, as you say just exercise regularly and keep a dog and have other such signals and women will come to you.

sergiomattei 3y ago
And it’s not even about women. This just applies to anyone looking for a romantic partner. Who doesn’t want all of those traits? They’re the whole package. People have standards, and it seems so-called incels aren’t comfortable with that.
- Jensson 3y ago
  Women who aren't reliable have no problems getting guys, so no it isn't the same for both sides. > Who doesn’t want all of those traits? Sure, but we are talking about preferences, men prioritizes other traits even though they of course would like to have the perfect woman.
  - sergiomattei 3y ago
    In my anecdotal experience, I chalk it down to inexperience. After a couple of unsuccessful committed relationships, people get their standards in place. It’s hard to imagine healthy adults want to date unreliable individuals romantically. I don’t think it’s a gendered issue.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      The reason doesn't matter, the end result is that unreliable women doesn't have issues getting guys as long as they are nice and not obese. Ditzy women is a popular trope for a reason.
- lazide 3y ago
  Incels are often that way because they don’t actually have standards/know how to mind their boundaries with women, know they’ll get fucked over because of it (and likely already were by one close to them - Mom) and are afraid to let anyone close enough to find that out. So sabotage themselves constantly and project that internalized anger into others.

sergiomattei 3y ago

Source for that first sentence? It’s a common trope, seems to emanate from the “red pill” community. From what I’ve heard, it came from a (flawed) study performed by some dating app. I don’t buy it.

lazide 3y ago
Reference to the flaws? Decades ago, I worked for a dating website - and it lined up with the reality in the ground based on what I saw, except the study actually seemed to be softpedaling the actual data. And I saw the constants used to fudge the public numbers at the site I worked at, so dudes weren’t so depressed they ran away. Something like FEMALE_COUNT_MULTIPLIER = 9 if I remember correctly.
- sergiomattei 3y ago
  Isn’t the ratio between men and women on these apps a problem that messes up the interpretation of these observations? Genuinely curious.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Which interpretation? And which sites? Most sites even back then were using generated female profiles to fill things out; and bots to create some messages for male customers who were ‘not engaged enough’. None of that (or total numbers multiplication) was necessary for female members. It seemed to get much worse after I left the industry - it was sleazy back then, and it seems to have gotten waaaay worse over time. Not surprising really.

Detrytus 3y ago

Women use dating apps to find casual sex, so obviously they go for looks. For real, long-term relationship they typically chose someone among their friends.

more_corn 3y ago

Or that dating apps are a terrible way for people to go about dating.

abathur 3y ago

I'm not sure how much meaningful information about "kindness" can fit in the signal a dating app/website tends to carry? Like, we could probably study dating websites and conclude that having a pleasant voice isn't high on most people's wish list, but I imagine a fair fraction won't keep dating someone if they find their voice grating.

eapressoandcats 3y ago

Dating sites put a massive thumb on the scale to looks, probably to everyone’s detriment in the long run. Looks become less important if you know someone through work, or your friends set you up, or you meet at an activity.

danenania 3y ago
I think it's also because dating sites give relatively high signal on looks and low signal on personality/chemistry. People don't necessarily filter by looks on dating sites because looks is what matters most to them, but because looks is the only dimension they have reliable enough information available to filter on. Imagine a 1-10 scale for looks, personality, and chemistry, and imagine that a person has some minimum sum that they're looking for--say they want at least a 20 across these three categories. If dating sites give you an accurate read on looks to within 2 points, personality within 4 points, and chemistry within 6 points, then the fastest and most reliable strategy to achieve the 20 would be to filter first by looks on the dating app, then filter the other qualities in person where you can get a better measure.