4 ms·

If you're online enough to identify yourself as an incel you're too online. If most of what you know about women comes from what they post on Instagram and Twit

If you're online enough to identify yourself as an incel you're too online. If most of what you know about women comes from what they post on Instagram and Twitter and whatever, then you really know nothing about women or men or their relationships. You've only ever been exposed to the toxic public discourse around men and women and not to men and women themselves.

navjack27 3y ago
Exactly this. Well said
richbell 3y ago
This seems quite condescending; I'm not sure if that's your intent. I've met people who have "taken refuge" in such communities precisely because of real life interactions. E.g., being bullied continuously through school, being rejected or laughed at by women. Being online obviously exacerbates the issue (be it radical forums, social media, online dating), but I think saying people only believe X because they're online misses the mark.
- Pigalowda 3y ago
  They’re not victims.
  - richbell 3y ago
    What exactly are you trying to say here?
  - nickthegreek 3y ago
    As with most things in life, absolutes do no favors. Some are victims, and some are probably just assholes. Wholesale discounting their experiences and feelings is no way to help them through their issues, made up or not.
    - voidwtf 3y ago
      So does generalizing an entire sex based off a handful of anecdotal experiences. I’ll never condone bullying, but I also teach my children not to make themselves a target. Rejection happens sometimes, if it keeps happening maybe we need to do some self-assessment. Joining an echo chamber of people who blame society or an entire genders autonomy for their own personal issue is not healthy.
      - nickthegreek 3y ago
        Saying some might be victims is not joining their echo chamber. Saying none of them are victims is generalizing just as incels generalize their issues with women. I’m here advocating to stop using binary language when discussing these issues.
        voidwtf 3y ago
        I did not say “none of them are victims”. I explicitly do not condone bullying. Being rejected does not make them victims. Maybe the reference to teaching my child not to make themselves a target implied I was victim blaming and that was not my intent. My son has a few idiosyncrasies that makes him the awesome individual he is, sometimes he can be very obstinate and does not think about the person he’s speaking to. I have to remind him that some of his school mates weren’t raised like he was and if he speaks to them that way they may respond violently.
- javajosh 3y ago
  >This seems quite condescending; I'm not sure if that's your intent. It's not. It's a fine-line between being empathetic and enabling. Just as there's a difference between being rejected by women and using that as evidence that no women will ever love you, or that women themselves are the problem. I believe that these online communities reenforce the narrative of collective victimhood, when really it's an individual with a bad string of luck, a sensitive soul, who would do better to learn to be stoic, equanimous, and find joy in themselves and the fight. Because life is hard. We will all suffer great injustice at some point. But that doesn't mean its hopeless; it's a challenge for us to transcend. I've known very ugly men in real life who had great personalities and no problem meeting women. It would have been easy for them to grow cynical and dark, but they didn't.
AtlasBarfed 3y ago
The incel movement has a root of truth warped to comical degrees by online exposure. But the essence of an incel is a perception of rejection by society, specifically from the sexual marketplace. There have been many many articles sourcing actual data that shows, especially with the friction reduction of dating apps, that selection pattern differences among women and men show that women reject a far far higher portion of the opposing gender than men do. The OKCupid data that was publicly released backs this up, and other articles analyzing online dating trends have also concluded this. Male and female pairings used to be more restricted geographically and by limited social graph sizes, both of which restrictions have been removed. Now, social evolution around apps is occurring at lightspeed compared to previous generations. So obviously the current trends may reflect a lack of awareness by women and men of the reality compared to the fantasy that the dating apps present. So Incels are likely the extreme tail of the male side of the coin. Of course, incels are rejected males, and then further get this compounded by their views being summarily rejected, and then further rejected as not just sexually undesirable, but socially undesirable (which are strongly correlated anyway). So, why should we care about some sad nerds in a basement, society has always kicked dirt on them? Yes they blow up once in a while, something that America has fundamental tolerance of without the Incel angle. No, why we should care is that Incels are a marker for general issues in overall pairing, dating, and reproduction and eventually the demographic health of a country.
- foogazi 3y ago
  > Male and female pairings used to be more restricted geographically and by limited social graph sizes, both of which restrictions have been removed. Wouldn’t this have created local incel populations? Have the geographic restrictions really been eliminated? Are people flying all over the country to find mates ?
  - Atheros 3y ago
    Dating apps (the means to meet someone on the other side of the city) and transportation technology (the means to travel to the other side of the city) have drastically opened up prior restrictions. When everyone met through church or local social clubs and when church was within walking distance, Chad couldn't date five women at once. Now he can and does.

navjack27 3y ago

Exactly this. Well said

richbell 3y ago

This seems quite condescending; I'm not sure if that's your intent. I've met people who have "taken refuge" in such communities precisely because of real life interactions. E.g., being bullied continuously through school, being rejected or laughed at by women. Being online obviously exacerbates the issue (be it radical forums, social media, online dating), but I think saying people only believe X because they're online misses the mark.

Pigalowda 3y ago
They’re not victims.
- richbell 3y ago
  What exactly are you trying to say here?
- nickthegreek 3y ago
  As with most things in life, absolutes do no favors. Some are victims, and some are probably just assholes. Wholesale discounting their experiences and feelings is no way to help them through their issues, made up or not.
  - voidwtf 3y ago
    So does generalizing an entire sex based off a handful of anecdotal experiences. I’ll never condone bullying, but I also teach my children not to make themselves a target. Rejection happens sometimes, if it keeps happening maybe we need to do some self-assessment. Joining an echo chamber of people who blame society or an entire genders autonomy for their own personal issue is not healthy.
    - nickthegreek 3y ago
      Saying some might be victims is not joining their echo chamber. Saying none of them are victims is generalizing just as incels generalize their issues with women. I’m here advocating to stop using binary language when discussing these issues.
      - voidwtf 3y ago
        I did not say “none of them are victims”. I explicitly do not condone bullying. Being rejected does not make them victims. Maybe the reference to teaching my child not to make themselves a target implied I was victim blaming and that was not my intent. My son has a few idiosyncrasies that makes him the awesome individual he is, sometimes he can be very obstinate and does not think about the person he’s speaking to. I have to remind him that some of his school mates weren’t raised like he was and if he speaks to them that way they may respond violently.
javajosh 3y ago
>This seems quite condescending; I'm not sure if that's your intent. It's not. It's a fine-line between being empathetic and enabling. Just as there's a difference between being rejected by women and using that as evidence that no women will ever love you, or that women themselves are the problem. I believe that these online communities reenforce the narrative of collective victimhood, when really it's an individual with a bad string of luck, a sensitive soul, who would do better to learn to be stoic, equanimous, and find joy in themselves and the fight. Because life is hard. We will all suffer great injustice at some point. But that doesn't mean its hopeless; it's a challenge for us to transcend. I've known very ugly men in real life who had great personalities and no problem meeting women. It would have been easy for them to grow cynical and dark, but they didn't.

AtlasBarfed 3y ago

The incel movement has a root of truth warped to comical degrees by online exposure. But the essence of an incel is a perception of rejection by society, specifically from the sexual marketplace. There have been many many articles sourcing actual data that shows, especially with the friction reduction of dating apps, that selection pattern differences among women and men show that women reject a far far higher portion of the opposing gender than men do. The OKCupid data that was publicly released backs this up, and other articles analyzing online dating trends have also concluded this. Male and female pairings used to be more restricted geographically and by limited social graph sizes, both of which restrictions have been removed. Now, social evolution around apps is occurring at lightspeed compared to previous generations. So obviously the current trends may reflect a lack of awareness by women and men of the reality compared to the fantasy that the dating apps present. So Incels are likely the extreme tail of the male side of the coin. Of course, incels are rejected males, and then further get this compounded by their views being summarily rejected, and then further rejected as not just sexually undesirable, but socially undesirable (which are strongly correlated anyway). So, why should we care about some sad nerds in a basement, society has always kicked dirt on them? Yes they blow up once in a while, something that America has fundamental tolerance of without the Incel angle. No, why we should care is that Incels are a marker for general issues in overall pairing, dating, and reproduction and eventually the demographic health of a country.

foogazi 3y ago
> Male and female pairings used to be more restricted geographically and by limited social graph sizes, both of which restrictions have been removed. Wouldn’t this have created local incel populations? Have the geographic restrictions really been eliminated? Are people flying all over the country to find mates ?
- Atheros 3y ago
  Dating apps (the means to meet someone on the other side of the city) and transportation technology (the means to travel to the other side of the city) have drastically opened up prior restrictions. When everyone met through church or local social clubs and when church was within walking distance, Chad couldn't date five women at once. Now he can and does.