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See, in your last paragraph, you're assuming the answer. "That right exists whether anyone wants it to or not". Does the right to murder exist? If you can't

See, in your last paragraph, you're assuming the answer. "That right exists whether anyone wants it to or not". Does the right to murder exist? If you can't understand the other side's view, you can't do anything but fight them to the ends of the earth. Well, it's been 51 years since Roe, and you still haven't won, so maybe you should re-think that approach.

krapp 3y ago
The right that I was talking about was clearly abortion, not murder, since it was a answer to your question of whether abortion was "a right that anyone should have?". I even went through the trouble of pointing out that "murder" is a legal construct, not a right, whereas killing another human being is, clearly, considered a right. This is an important context to consider in the question of abortion, because "if a fetus is human then abortion is murder" (essentially your argument) is a false dichotomy, just as "does the right to murder exist" is a contradiction in terms. I think I understand the other side's view more than you understand mine, since you seem to be arguing against some strawman anti-abortionist living rent free in your head, and I at least put in a good faith attempt. And as far as approaches go, attacking the person instead of their arguments will doubtless score you points on the internet, but it won't convince anyone of anything. But I guess you're correct that I can't argue with results. You don't have to convince anyone when you can just force the issue through a cabal of unelected judges by fiat.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  95% (number made up, but it won't be too far wrong) of abortions are not life or health of the mother, and are therefore not "killing in self defense". They aren't killing in war, either, which is the other "it's not murder" category. Killing another person for my convenience is not a right. It's murder. So there's a real issue here, not just "strawman anti-abortionist" stuff. It's something that actual anti-abortionists believe. Not just a few, either. You're not going to persuade them by telling them that "murder is a social construct". (In fact, that argument is completely off-point, because "legal" is a social construct, and the argument is whether abortion should be legal.) And if you think that there is a right to killing that goes beyond self-defense, they're not likely to agree with you. (I'm pretty sure I don't, either, unless you can be more specific about what kind of right you think that is and why you think we have it.)

krapp 3y ago

The right that I was talking about was clearly abortion, not murder, since it was a answer to your question of whether abortion was "a right that anyone should have?". I even went through the trouble of pointing out that "murder" is a legal construct, not a right, whereas killing another human being is, clearly, considered a right. This is an important context to consider in the question of abortion, because "if a fetus is human then abortion is murder" (essentially your argument) is a false dichotomy, just as "does the right to murder exist" is a contradiction in terms. I think I understand the other side's view more than you understand mine, since you seem to be arguing against some strawman anti-abortionist living rent free in your head, and I at least put in a good faith attempt. And as far as approaches go, attacking the person instead of their arguments will doubtless score you points on the internet, but it won't convince anyone of anything. But I guess you're correct that I can't argue with results. You don't have to convince anyone when you can just force the issue through a cabal of unelected judges by fiat.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
95% (number made up, but it won't be too far wrong) of abortions are not life or health of the mother, and are therefore not "killing in self defense". They aren't killing in war, either, which is the other "it's not murder" category. Killing another person for my convenience is not a right. It's murder. So there's a real issue here, not just "strawman anti-abortionist" stuff. It's something that actual anti-abortionists believe. Not just a few, either. You're not going to persuade them by telling them that "murder is a social construct". (In fact, that argument is completely off-point, because "legal" is a social construct, and the argument is whether abortion should be legal.) And if you think that there is a right to killing that goes beyond self-defense, they're not likely to agree with you. (I'm pretty sure I don't, either, unless you can be more specific about what kind of right you think that is and why you think we have it.)