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Only if you lack any understanding of how these conflicts came about maybe. They are not equivocal at all.

dron57 3y ago
Let's see. One is a brutal, colonial invasion with the intent of totally replacing the local population. And the other is Israel responding to the rape and murder of hundreds of their civilians.
- _a_a_a_ 3y ago
  By killing 23,700 Gazans so far, mostly women and children? And possibly this came about because the Israeli government allowed money to Hamas to split the Palestinian governance? And possibly the Palestinians don't like being treated in the same way that blacks were treated in South Africa (i.e., second-class citizens)? And wasn't there something about government supported attacks happening in West Bank? Israel does have a right to defend itself. It also has an obligation to be humane, and if it wants to continue existing without internal conflict with its neighbours, perhaps this is not quite the best way to do it. "“Colleagues who have managed to make it to the north in recent days describe scenes of utter horror: Corpses left lying in the road. People with evident signs of starvation stopping trucks in search of anything they can get to survive,” Martin Griffiths, UN Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, told members of the UN Security Council on Friday. " - https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/12/middleeast/gaza-corpses-on-streets-un-official-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/12/middleeast/gaza-corpses-o... Does any of that matter to you? Edit: @josephg "The Health Ministry in Hamas-run Gaza said Saturday that 135 Palestinians were killed in the last 24 hours, bringing the overall toll of the war to 23,843. The count does not differentiate between combatants and civilians, but the ministry has said about two-thirds of the dead are women and children." - https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-israeli-airstrikes-gaza-strip-20240113-tehtoxw4ubh23krjr4jiyivzxa-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-israel... "For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip — money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them... Allowing the payments — billions of dollars over roughly a decade — was a gamble by Mr. Netanyahu that a steady flow of money would maintain peace in Gaza, the eventual launching point of the Oct. 7 attacks, and keep Hamas focused on governing, not fighting." - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... (edit 2: snotty comments removed)
  - josephg 3y ago
    > mostly women and children? This is a weird claim. How are the bombs selectively targeting women? Are the bombs sexist? > And possibly this came about because the Israeli government allowed money to Hamas to split the Palestinian governance? “Allowed money”? Gaza has been self governing for years. Do you want Israel to intervene in politics in Palestine or not? You can’t have it both ways - either they pull out and let Gaza self govern, or they meddle in political affairs and make sure money is spent in a way they like. What would you have them do? I agree with your main points - the loss of civilian life seems like an avoidable tragedy. (As were the Israeli civilian deaths a few months ago). But the strange points you make at the start of your comment weaken the overall message.
    - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
      I believe I've addressed your criticisms. I'd be interested in your reply.
- goalieca 3y ago
  Hamas, the government of Palestine, is a recognized as a terrorist organization by democratic governments around the world like our own in Canada.
cool_dude85 3y ago
Both Russia and Israel are widely agreed to be on the wrong side of international law - Israel is of course continuing its illegal occupation, illegal settlements, illegal blockade, etc. Why are the circumstances so different?
- josephg 3y ago
  Hamas is also on the wrong side of international law. Bombing, kidnapping, raping and murdering civilians is not ok no matter how angry you are. And they aren’t just a rogue terrorist cell. They’re the elected government of Palestine. Russia can just pull out of Ukraine and everyone will chill out. But Israel can’t ignore Hamas after the terrorist act in October. And if they pull out of their illegal settlements in response to a terrorist act, it will embolden the next strike against their civilians. As far as I can tell, it’s an impossible situation for everyone. If you truly think there are simple answers in Gaza, how would you de-escalate the conflict at this point?
  - cool_dude85 3y ago
    >Hamas is also on the wrong side of international law. Bombing, kidnapping, raping and murdering civilians is not ok no matter how angry you are. And they aren’t just a rogue terrorist cell. They’re the elected government of Palestine. Much to my point about the Israel and Russia attacks being very comparable, Russia can of course point to such terrorist groups in Ukraine, even ones like Azov being given official status in the armed forces. >But Israel can’t ignore Hamas after the terrorist act in October. Speculation on both our parts, but I think a real Palestinian state in the pre-67 borders and right of return for refugees would effectively end large-scale terrorist attacks, much the same as Russia would be safe if they withdrew from Ukraine.
    - josephg 3y ago
      > I think a real Palestinian state in the pre-67 borders and right of return for refugees would effectively end large-scale terrorist attacks Unfortunately it would also tell Palestine that terrorism works. And next time they want Israel to take their needs seriously, murdering, kidnapping and raping some Israeli civilians is the right way to go about it. From a long term strategic point of view, Israel can’t give ground as a result of the terrorist attacks or they encourage more such attacks to happen in the future.

Let's see. One is a brutal, colonial invasion with the intent of totally replacing the local population. And the other is Israel responding to the rape and murder of hundreds of their civilians.

_a_a_a_ 3y ago
By killing 23,700 Gazans so far, mostly women and children? And possibly this came about because the Israeli government allowed money to Hamas to split the Palestinian governance? And possibly the Palestinians don't like being treated in the same way that blacks were treated in South Africa (i.e., second-class citizens)? And wasn't there something about government supported attacks happening in West Bank? Israel does have a right to defend itself. It also has an obligation to be humane, and if it wants to continue existing without internal conflict with its neighbours, perhaps this is not quite the best way to do it. "“Colleagues who have managed to make it to the north in recent days describe scenes of utter horror: Corpses left lying in the road. People with evident signs of starvation stopping trucks in search of anything they can get to survive,” Martin Griffiths, UN Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, told members of the UN Security Council on Friday. " - https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/12/middleeast/gaza-corpses-on-streets-un-official-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/12/middleeast/gaza-corpses-o... Does any of that matter to you? Edit: @josephg "The Health Ministry in Hamas-run Gaza said Saturday that 135 Palestinians were killed in the last 24 hours, bringing the overall toll of the war to 23,843. The count does not differentiate between combatants and civilians, but the ministry has said about two-thirds of the dead are women and children." - https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-israeli-airstrikes-gaza-strip-20240113-tehtoxw4ubh23krjr4jiyivzxa-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-israel... "For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip — money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them... Allowing the payments — billions of dollars over roughly a decade — was a gamble by Mr. Netanyahu that a steady flow of money would maintain peace in Gaza, the eventual launching point of the Oct. 7 attacks, and keep Hamas focused on governing, not fighting." - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... (edit 2: snotty comments removed)
- josephg 3y ago
  > mostly women and children? This is a weird claim. How are the bombs selectively targeting women? Are the bombs sexist? > And possibly this came about because the Israeli government allowed money to Hamas to split the Palestinian governance? “Allowed money”? Gaza has been self governing for years. Do you want Israel to intervene in politics in Palestine or not? You can’t have it both ways - either they pull out and let Gaza self govern, or they meddle in political affairs and make sure money is spent in a way they like. What would you have them do? I agree with your main points - the loss of civilian life seems like an avoidable tragedy. (As were the Israeli civilian deaths a few months ago). But the strange points you make at the start of your comment weaken the overall message.
  - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
    I believe I've addressed your criticisms. I'd be interested in your reply.
goalieca 3y ago
Hamas, the government of Palestine, is a recognized as a terrorist organization by democratic governments around the world like our own in Canada.

cool_dude85 3y ago

Both Russia and Israel are widely agreed to be on the wrong side of international law - Israel is of course continuing its illegal occupation, illegal settlements, illegal blockade, etc. Why are the circumstances so different?

josephg 3y ago
Hamas is also on the wrong side of international law. Bombing, kidnapping, raping and murdering civilians is not ok no matter how angry you are. And they aren’t just a rogue terrorist cell. They’re the elected government of Palestine. Russia can just pull out of Ukraine and everyone will chill out. But Israel can’t ignore Hamas after the terrorist act in October. And if they pull out of their illegal settlements in response to a terrorist act, it will embolden the next strike against their civilians. As far as I can tell, it’s an impossible situation for everyone. If you truly think there are simple answers in Gaza, how would you de-escalate the conflict at this point?
- cool_dude85 3y ago
  >Hamas is also on the wrong side of international law. Bombing, kidnapping, raping and murdering civilians is not ok no matter how angry you are. And they aren’t just a rogue terrorist cell. They’re the elected government of Palestine. Much to my point about the Israel and Russia attacks being very comparable, Russia can of course point to such terrorist groups in Ukraine, even ones like Azov being given official status in the armed forces. >But Israel can’t ignore Hamas after the terrorist act in October. Speculation on both our parts, but I think a real Palestinian state in the pre-67 borders and right of return for refugees would effectively end large-scale terrorist attacks, much the same as Russia would be safe if they withdrew from Ukraine.
  - josephg 3y ago
    > I think a real Palestinian state in the pre-67 borders and right of return for refugees would effectively end large-scale terrorist attacks Unfortunately it would also tell Palestine that terrorism works. And next time they want Israel to take their needs seriously, murdering, kidnapping and raping some Israeli civilians is the right way to go about it. From a long term strategic point of view, Israel can’t give ground as a result of the terrorist attacks or they encourage more such attacks to happen in the future.