12 ms·

Saw a variation of this during the recent bout of tech layoffs. Shortly before end of year eval time, a senior executive sent out emails questioning whether it

by JustLurking2022 3y ago

Saw a variation of this during the recent bout of tech layoffs. Shortly before end of year eval time, a senior executive sent out emails questioning whether it was even possible for new hires to have made sufficient impact and suggesting they should consequently be given a poor rating as the default. It's amazing that leaders at these companies which, for years, acted as though they had all the answers and were more successful than other industries because they worked smarter. And then, at the first sign of headwinds, they want no accountability for their decisions and can't figure out a principles as simple as being honest and treating people fairly. I'm honestly curious how CloudFlare will handle reference checks for these people, given they are calling these performance based dismissals. Will they say they are "not eligible for rehire" (the HR way of saying they were terminated for cause)? If so, I hope they get sued, as that can tank a person's entire career trajectory.

j4yav 3y ago
Is the main reason they are motivated to blame performance so that they can avoid paying out disability (edit: unemployment) insurance?
- gruez 3y ago
  >disability insurance I think you meant unemployment insurance?
  - barbazoo 3y ago
    If so, how would they achieve that. In Canada afaik you only pay EI while one’s employed. How would they have saved money with this?
    - gruez 3y ago
      random from google: https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/handling-unemployment-claims/ https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/handling-unempl... >Again, you are responsible for paying FUTA and SUTA tax for your employees. And when former employees file for unemployment benefits, you are (indirectly) the one footing the bill. >Benefit payments are charged to your employer tax account, which results in increased state tax rates. The more unemployment claims the state approves, the more you contribute for unemployment taxes.
    - ryandamm 3y ago
      At least in California, businesses pay rates that are partially determined by the number of UI claims the company has paid out. You get a letter-based score that has many different tiers. Startups without a long history end up in the worst category be default, iirc.
- wbl 3y ago
  You get UI even if fired unless it was for misconduct. Being bad at your job is not misconduct.
  - j4yav 3y ago
    Then what’s the point of taking a shot at someone barely out of training to say it was their fault?
    - JustLurking2022 3y ago
      Not admitting senior leaders screwed up the strategy and over-hired.
gruez 3y ago
>I'm honestly curious how CloudFlare will handle reference checks for these people, given they are calling these performance based dismissals. Will they say they are "not eligible for rehire" (the HR way of saying they were terminated for cause)? If so, I hope they get sued, as that can tank a person's entire career trajectory. 1. If you were fired for "performance" reasons, why would you want to use that as a reference? 2. IANAL, but regardless of whether "not eligible for rehire" will "tank a person's entire career trajectory", truth is a valid defense against defamation. If Cloudflare indeed is not going to rehire them, they're fairly safe from lawsuits.
- krallja 3y ago
  I just got a new job, and they called every single company I had worked for to ask them if I worked there, what my position was, and whether I was eligible for rehire. I didn’t get a choice about whether to include each previous employer or not: my choice was between “do the background check” or “thanks for your application, we have decided to move forward with a different candidate.” The only other thing I could have done was not included the ones with less-than-stellar experience, but then I wouldn’t have made it past the resume screen because of the gaps!
  - whamlastxmas 3y ago
    I just embrace the gaps personally. The idea of a terrible former employer costing me a new job sounds awful. My effort might be in vain anyway since background checks, from my understanding, show the entirety of your W2 history anyway
    - codersfocus 3y ago
      You can lock your w2 history on the data brokers site. The most popular one is The Work Number.
      - whamlastxmas 3y ago
        Aren't there like a thousand data brokers? I am suspicious any efforts to block this would be effective
barbazoo 3y ago
> as that can tank a person's entire career trajectory Plus the act of career suicide by publishing company meeting recordings on social media.
- paul7986 3y ago
  That depends I think on the demographic hiring her as the TikTok generation as you can see are all on her side (older generation might view her as young/inexperienced/whiny to entitled brat). It might be a good PR stunt to hire her and thus look good in the eyes of possibly the millions who commented in her favor. As well after Covid things are different like people don't and don't want to work as hard as they use to. We value our own time more then our employers time. A very small dataset where I experienced this is going to fast or casual food restaurants 15 to 30 minutes before they close. Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours.
  - spacemadness 3y ago
    Or looked at another way, employers value workers time even less and people notice.
  - theodric 3y ago
    > Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours. Try asking a Swiss man in his late 50s/early 60s at a Swiss bank to do a medium-sized but achievable task at 15:00 on a Friday and see what kind of response you get. I had several under me, so I know firsthand that you'll likely get grumbling and pushback. You'll probably get the work product, but it will come with critical commentary.
    - paul7986 3y ago
      Sure and my experiences were at a McDonald's like fast food place we have in the US called Wendys and at a sub shop like Subway called Jersey Mikes. I can semi understand 15 minutes at the sub shop and even asked the worker is it too late to make me a sub? She said no then proceeded to slam the meat, bread, etc on the counter, huff/puff and roll her eyes at me while her co-worker says we are closing soon. This same worker does this to many in the town as a handful of others complained about her in a FB group thread. She is still working there giving the same attitude. They are paid $20 an hour plus tips. After Coivd the employee is always right cause i guess they are hard to find now and retain.
pandaman 3y ago
>I'm honestly curious how CloudFlare will handle reference checks for these people Just like every other company: confirm the start date, the end date, and the job title. Nobody in their sane mind will give anything else.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  I'd say that a very large portion of companies also ask, and answer, the question, "Is the person eligible for re-hire?"
  - gitfan86 3y ago
    Background checks only confirm information given as part of an application. Employment and job title. References however can be more about the quality of the work including "would you work with this person again?" HR only does the background check part. The job of an HR department is to make the company look good. They do not want to start a conversation about how they hire bad employees or initiate a conversation where the former employer will tell their side of the story.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

j4yav 3y ago

Is the main reason they are motivated to blame performance so that they can avoid paying out disability (edit: unemployment) insurance?

gruez 3y ago
>disability insurance I think you meant unemployment insurance?
- barbazoo 3y ago
  If so, how would they achieve that. In Canada afaik you only pay EI while one’s employed. How would they have saved money with this?
  - gruez 3y ago
    random from google: https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/handling-unemployment-claims/ https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/handling-unempl... >Again, you are responsible for paying FUTA and SUTA tax for your employees. And when former employees file for unemployment benefits, you are (indirectly) the one footing the bill. >Benefit payments are charged to your employer tax account, which results in increased state tax rates. The more unemployment claims the state approves, the more you contribute for unemployment taxes.
  - ryandamm 3y ago
    At least in California, businesses pay rates that are partially determined by the number of UI claims the company has paid out. You get a letter-based score that has many different tiers. Startups without a long history end up in the worst category be default, iirc.
wbl 3y ago
You get UI even if fired unless it was for misconduct. Being bad at your job is not misconduct.
- j4yav 3y ago
  Then what’s the point of taking a shot at someone barely out of training to say it was their fault?
  - JustLurking2022 3y ago
    Not admitting senior leaders screwed up the strategy and over-hired.

gruez 3y ago

>I'm honestly curious how CloudFlare will handle reference checks for these people, given they are calling these performance based dismissals. Will they say they are "not eligible for rehire" (the HR way of saying they were terminated for cause)? If so, I hope they get sued, as that can tank a person's entire career trajectory. 1. If you were fired for "performance" reasons, why would you want to use that as a reference? 2. IANAL, but regardless of whether "not eligible for rehire" will "tank a person's entire career trajectory", truth is a valid defense against defamation. If Cloudflare indeed is not going to rehire them, they're fairly safe from lawsuits.

krallja 3y ago
I just got a new job, and they called every single company I had worked for to ask them if I worked there, what my position was, and whether I was eligible for rehire. I didn’t get a choice about whether to include each previous employer or not: my choice was between “do the background check” or “thanks for your application, we have decided to move forward with a different candidate.” The only other thing I could have done was not included the ones with less-than-stellar experience, but then I wouldn’t have made it past the resume screen because of the gaps!
- whamlastxmas 3y ago
  I just embrace the gaps personally. The idea of a terrible former employer costing me a new job sounds awful. My effort might be in vain anyway since background checks, from my understanding, show the entirety of your W2 history anyway
  - codersfocus 3y ago
    You can lock your w2 history on the data brokers site. The most popular one is The Work Number.
    - whamlastxmas 3y ago
      Aren't there like a thousand data brokers? I am suspicious any efforts to block this would be effective

barbazoo 3y ago

> as that can tank a person's entire career trajectory Plus the act of career suicide by publishing company meeting recordings on social media.

paul7986 3y ago
That depends I think on the demographic hiring her as the TikTok generation as you can see are all on her side (older generation might view her as young/inexperienced/whiny to entitled brat). It might be a good PR stunt to hire her and thus look good in the eyes of possibly the millions who commented in her favor. As well after Covid things are different like people don't and don't want to work as hard as they use to. We value our own time more then our employers time. A very small dataset where I experienced this is going to fast or casual food restaurants 15 to 30 minutes before they close. Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours.
- spacemadness 3y ago
  Or looked at another way, employers value workers time even less and people notice.
- theodric 3y ago
  > Some will cuss you out in a nice way for you making them do their job close to closing hours. Try asking a Swiss man in his late 50s/early 60s at a Swiss bank to do a medium-sized but achievable task at 15:00 on a Friday and see what kind of response you get. I had several under me, so I know firsthand that you'll likely get grumbling and pushback. You'll probably get the work product, but it will come with critical commentary.
  - paul7986 3y ago
    Sure and my experiences were at a McDonald's like fast food place we have in the US called Wendys and at a sub shop like Subway called Jersey Mikes. I can semi understand 15 minutes at the sub shop and even asked the worker is it too late to make me a sub? She said no then proceeded to slam the meat, bread, etc on the counter, huff/puff and roll her eyes at me while her co-worker says we are closing soon. This same worker does this to many in the town as a handful of others complained about her in a FB group thread. She is still working there giving the same attitude. They are paid $20 an hour plus tips. After Coivd the employee is always right cause i guess they are hard to find now and retain.

pandaman 3y ago

>I'm honestly curious how CloudFlare will handle reference checks for these people Just like every other company: confirm the start date, the end date, and the job title. Nobody in their sane mind will give anything else.

FireBeyond 3y ago
I'd say that a very large portion of companies also ask, and answer, the question, "Is the person eligible for re-hire?"
- gitfan86 3y ago
  Background checks only confirm information given as part of an application. Employment and job title. References however can be more about the quality of the work including "would you work with this person again?" HR only does the background check part. The job of an HR department is to make the company look good. They do not want to start a conversation about how they hire bad employees or initiate a conversation where the former employer will tell their side of the story.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]