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That American universities have "foreign policies" is pretty damn obvious given how different the treatment of Russia's war and occupation of parts of Ukraine i

That American universities have "foreign policies" is pretty damn obvious given how different the treatment of Russia's war and occupation of parts of Ukraine is from the treatment of Israel's war and occupation of Palestine.

kjkjadksj 3y ago
Only if you lack any understanding of how these conflicts came about maybe. They are not equivocal at all.
- dron57 3y ago
  Let's see. One is a brutal, colonial invasion with the intent of totally replacing the local population. And the other is Israel responding to the rape and murder of hundreds of their civilians.
  - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
    By killing 23,700 Gazans so far, mostly women and children? And possibly this came about because the Israeli government allowed money to Hamas to split the Palestinian governance? And possibly the Palestinians don't like being treated in the same way that blacks were treated in South Africa (i.e., second-class citizens)? And wasn't there something about government supported attacks happening in West Bank? Israel does have a right to defend itself. It also has an obligation to be humane, and if it wants to continue existing without internal conflict with its neighbours, perhaps this is not quite the best way to do it. "“Colleagues who have managed to make it to the north in recent days describe scenes of utter horror: Corpses left lying in the road. People with evident signs of starvation stopping trucks in search of anything they can get to survive,” Martin Griffiths, UN Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, told members of the UN Security Council on Friday. " - https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/12/middleeast/gaza-corpses-on-streets-un-official-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/12/middleeast/gaza-corpses-o... Does any of that matter to you? Edit: @josephg "The Health Ministry in Hamas-run Gaza said Saturday that 135 Palestinians were killed in the last 24 hours, bringing the overall toll of the war to 23,843. The count does not differentiate between combatants and civilians, but the ministry has said about two-thirds of the dead are women and children." - https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-israeli-airstrikes-gaza-strip-20240113-tehtoxw4ubh23krjr4jiyivzxa-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-israel... "For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip — money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them... Allowing the payments — billions of dollars over roughly a decade — was a gamble by Mr. Netanyahu that a steady flow of money would maintain peace in Gaza, the eventual launching point of the Oct. 7 attacks, and keep Hamas focused on governing, not fighting." - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... (edit 2: snotty comments removed)
    - josephg 3y ago
      > mostly women and children? This is a weird claim. How are the bombs selectively targeting women? Are the bombs sexist? > And possibly this came about because the Israeli government allowed money to Hamas to split the Palestinian governance? “Allowed money”? Gaza has been self governing for years. Do you want Israel to intervene in politics in Palestine or not? You can’t have it both ways - either they pull out and let Gaza self govern, or they meddle in political affairs and make sure money is spent in a way they like. What would you have them do? I agree with your main points - the loss of civilian life seems like an avoidable tragedy. (As were the Israeli civilian deaths a few months ago). But the strange points you make at the start of your comment weaken the overall message.
      - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
        I believe I've addressed your criticisms. I'd be interested in your reply.
  - goalieca 3y ago
    Hamas, the government of Palestine, is a recognized as a terrorist organization by democratic governments around the world like our own in Canada.
- cool_dude85 3y ago
  Both Russia and Israel are widely agreed to be on the wrong side of international law - Israel is of course continuing its illegal occupation, illegal settlements, illegal blockade, etc. Why are the circumstances so different?
  - josephg 3y ago
    Hamas is also on the wrong side of international law. Bombing, kidnapping, raping and murdering civilians is not ok no matter how angry you are. And they aren’t just a rogue terrorist cell. They’re the elected government of Palestine. Russia can just pull out of Ukraine and everyone will chill out. But Israel can’t ignore Hamas after the terrorist act in October. And if they pull out of their illegal settlements in response to a terrorist act, it will embolden the next strike against their civilians. As far as I can tell, it’s an impossible situation for everyone. If you truly think there are simple answers in Gaza, how would you de-escalate the conflict at this point?
    - cool_dude85 3y ago
      >Hamas is also on the wrong side of international law. Bombing, kidnapping, raping and murdering civilians is not ok no matter how angry you are. And they aren’t just a rogue terrorist cell. They’re the elected government of Palestine. Much to my point about the Israel and Russia attacks being very comparable, Russia can of course point to such terrorist groups in Ukraine, even ones like Azov being given official status in the armed forces. >But Israel can’t ignore Hamas after the terrorist act in October. Speculation on both our parts, but I think a real Palestinian state in the pre-67 borders and right of return for refugees would effectively end large-scale terrorist attacks, much the same as Russia would be safe if they withdrew from Ukraine.
      - josephg 3y ago
        > I think a real Palestinian state in the pre-67 borders and right of return for refugees would effectively end large-scale terrorist attacks Unfortunately it would also tell Palestine that terrorism works. And next time they want Israel to take their needs seriously, murdering, kidnapping and raping some Israeli civilians is the right way to go about it. From a long term strategic point of view, Israel can’t give ground as a result of the terrorist attacks or they encourage more such attacks to happen in the future.
mike_hock 3y ago
Ah, if you consider the situations comparable, then maybe you'd like to point out which Ukrainian group has been plotting and committing acts of terror against Russia for decades to the point that Russia needs an Iron Dome missile interceptor system to keep its cities safe?
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  The thousands of civilians murdered in Gaza, the people getting killed in the West Bank haven't "plotted" anything. Starving people is a war crime, not war. Nobody, literally nobody ever at any point in this debtate, is talking about how Israel is treating Hamas. You have as much as an argument as Putin saying he just wanted to denazify the Ukraine.
josephg 3y ago
The whole situation in Palestine is a mess. It’s way too simplistic to claim that the Palestinians have an ancestral claim on the land and the Jewish people are invaders. Jewish people have also lived in that area for thousands of years. What’s changed is the state of Israel has kicked out a lot of Palestinians who also lived in that area for thousands of years. And the Palestinians have (unsurprisingly) become radicalised and deeply antisemitic. They elected Hamas and Hamas redirected aid for their own people into making weapons of war. The conflicts are not alike. In Gaza, there is no “good guys”. Everyone has civilian blood on their hands. Everyone is angry. And there are no easy answers that have any hope of achieving peace. Of course the foreign policy positions of our governments are different in each case.
- bjourne 3y ago
  Well, since no two situations are identical you can always make up a contrived argument as to why "X warrants Y" in situation A but not in situation B. "We should divest any occupier state" applies to both Israel and Russia so you tweak your argument to "We should divest from any state that occupies the territory of another state" and, voila, Israel is excluded! If Palestine ever becomes a UN member, just tweak the argument further "... of another state recognized by the United States". Eventually the mental gymnastics reduces to "Divest from states whose names begin with R, but not from states whose names begin with I." You then claim consistency but everyone else can see what you are doing.
  - josephg 3y ago
    > “Divest from states whose names begin with R, but not from states whose names begin with I” I’m not sure why you expect your comment to be convincing. The facts on the ground are obviously different. I sincerely believe those differences matter. Reducing my argument to a straw man only leaves me suspecting you don’t understand my point. In any case, if you take this as axiomatic: > We should divest any occupier state Do you also believe that non-indigenous people are “occupying” the USA, Canada, Australia, India, South Africa and so on? Should we all somehow return “home”? If you see Russia and Israel as the same situation, is it not also the same situation in many other countries? Where do you suggest we draw the line? And where, exactly, do you propose the Israelis should go this time?
jltsiren 3y ago
Can you elaborate this a bit? As far as I know, the University of California never issued an official statement on the war in Ukraine. On our campus, the campus leadership issued their own condemnation about a week after the invasion started. I remember thinking that there must be something going on behind the scenes, as the university usually reacts faster. On the other hand, the university officially condemned the Hamas terrorist attack on October 9, which was the first business day after the attack.
- bjourne 3y ago
  There are many of examples of educators being penalized for taking positions perceived to to be "anti-Israel": * US professors suspended, probed over Gaza war comments: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-professors-suspended-probed-over-gaza-war-comments-2023-11-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-professors-suspended-pro... * Steven Salaita: U. of I. destroyed my career: https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-steven-salaita-tenure-jews-twitter-tweets-unive-20140929-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-steven-... * UM disciplines prof over Israel letter controversy: https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/10/09/university-michigan-disciplines-professor-over-israel-letter-controversy/1580969002/ https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/10... In the Salaita affair donors made it clear that donations would stop if they hired him. And the university complied. It would have been a nothingburger if his tweets were about Russia. Similarly, many US universities have divested from Russia, but all have consistently refused calls to divest from Israel.
rthkljlkrj 3y ago
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kjkjadksj 3y ago

Only if you lack any understanding of how these conflicts came about maybe. They are not equivocal at all.

dron57 3y ago
Let's see. One is a brutal, colonial invasion with the intent of totally replacing the local population. And the other is Israel responding to the rape and murder of hundreds of their civilians.
- _a_a_a_ 3y ago
  By killing 23,700 Gazans so far, mostly women and children? And possibly this came about because the Israeli government allowed money to Hamas to split the Palestinian governance? And possibly the Palestinians don't like being treated in the same way that blacks were treated in South Africa (i.e., second-class citizens)? And wasn't there something about government supported attacks happening in West Bank? Israel does have a right to defend itself. It also has an obligation to be humane, and if it wants to continue existing without internal conflict with its neighbours, perhaps this is not quite the best way to do it. "“Colleagues who have managed to make it to the north in recent days describe scenes of utter horror: Corpses left lying in the road. People with evident signs of starvation stopping trucks in search of anything they can get to survive,” Martin Griffiths, UN Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, told members of the UN Security Council on Friday. " - https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/12/middleeast/gaza-corpses-on-streets-un-official-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/12/middleeast/gaza-corpses-o... Does any of that matter to you? Edit: @josephg "The Health Ministry in Hamas-run Gaza said Saturday that 135 Palestinians were killed in the last 24 hours, bringing the overall toll of the war to 23,843. The count does not differentiate between combatants and civilians, but the ministry has said about two-thirds of the dead are women and children." - https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-israeli-airstrikes-gaza-strip-20240113-tehtoxw4ubh23krjr4jiyivzxa-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-israel... "For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip — money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them... Allowing the payments — billions of dollars over roughly a decade — was a gamble by Mr. Netanyahu that a steady flow of money would maintain peace in Gaza, the eventual launching point of the Oct. 7 attacks, and keep Hamas focused on governing, not fighting." - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... (edit 2: snotty comments removed)
  - josephg 3y ago
    > mostly women and children? This is a weird claim. How are the bombs selectively targeting women? Are the bombs sexist? > And possibly this came about because the Israeli government allowed money to Hamas to split the Palestinian governance? “Allowed money”? Gaza has been self governing for years. Do you want Israel to intervene in politics in Palestine or not? You can’t have it both ways - either they pull out and let Gaza self govern, or they meddle in political affairs and make sure money is spent in a way they like. What would you have them do? I agree with your main points - the loss of civilian life seems like an avoidable tragedy. (As were the Israeli civilian deaths a few months ago). But the strange points you make at the start of your comment weaken the overall message.
    - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
      I believe I've addressed your criticisms. I'd be interested in your reply.
- goalieca 3y ago
  Hamas, the government of Palestine, is a recognized as a terrorist organization by democratic governments around the world like our own in Canada.
cool_dude85 3y ago
Both Russia and Israel are widely agreed to be on the wrong side of international law - Israel is of course continuing its illegal occupation, illegal settlements, illegal blockade, etc. Why are the circumstances so different?
- josephg 3y ago
  Hamas is also on the wrong side of international law. Bombing, kidnapping, raping and murdering civilians is not ok no matter how angry you are. And they aren’t just a rogue terrorist cell. They’re the elected government of Palestine. Russia can just pull out of Ukraine and everyone will chill out. But Israel can’t ignore Hamas after the terrorist act in October. And if they pull out of their illegal settlements in response to a terrorist act, it will embolden the next strike against their civilians. As far as I can tell, it’s an impossible situation for everyone. If you truly think there are simple answers in Gaza, how would you de-escalate the conflict at this point?
  - cool_dude85 3y ago
    >Hamas is also on the wrong side of international law. Bombing, kidnapping, raping and murdering civilians is not ok no matter how angry you are. And they aren’t just a rogue terrorist cell. They’re the elected government of Palestine. Much to my point about the Israel and Russia attacks being very comparable, Russia can of course point to such terrorist groups in Ukraine, even ones like Azov being given official status in the armed forces. >But Israel can’t ignore Hamas after the terrorist act in October. Speculation on both our parts, but I think a real Palestinian state in the pre-67 borders and right of return for refugees would effectively end large-scale terrorist attacks, much the same as Russia would be safe if they withdrew from Ukraine.
    - josephg 3y ago
      > I think a real Palestinian state in the pre-67 borders and right of return for refugees would effectively end large-scale terrorist attacks Unfortunately it would also tell Palestine that terrorism works. And next time they want Israel to take their needs seriously, murdering, kidnapping and raping some Israeli civilians is the right way to go about it. From a long term strategic point of view, Israel can’t give ground as a result of the terrorist attacks or they encourage more such attacks to happen in the future.

mike_hock 3y ago

Ah, if you consider the situations comparable, then maybe you'd like to point out which Ukrainian group has been plotting and committing acts of terror against Russia for decades to the point that Russia needs an Iron Dome missile interceptor system to keep its cities safe?

johnnyworker 3y ago
The thousands of civilians murdered in Gaza, the people getting killed in the West Bank haven't "plotted" anything. Starving people is a war crime, not war. Nobody, literally nobody ever at any point in this debtate, is talking about how Israel is treating Hamas. You have as much as an argument as Putin saying he just wanted to denazify the Ukraine.

josephg 3y ago

The whole situation in Palestine is a mess. It’s way too simplistic to claim that the Palestinians have an ancestral claim on the land and the Jewish people are invaders. Jewish people have also lived in that area for thousands of years. What’s changed is the state of Israel has kicked out a lot of Palestinians who also lived in that area for thousands of years. And the Palestinians have (unsurprisingly) become radicalised and deeply antisemitic. They elected Hamas and Hamas redirected aid for their own people into making weapons of war. The conflicts are not alike. In Gaza, there is no “good guys”. Everyone has civilian blood on their hands. Everyone is angry. And there are no easy answers that have any hope of achieving peace. Of course the foreign policy positions of our governments are different in each case.

bjourne 3y ago
Well, since no two situations are identical you can always make up a contrived argument as to why "X warrants Y" in situation A but not in situation B. "We should divest any occupier state" applies to both Israel and Russia so you tweak your argument to "We should divest from any state that occupies the territory of another state" and, voila, Israel is excluded! If Palestine ever becomes a UN member, just tweak the argument further "... of another state recognized by the United States". Eventually the mental gymnastics reduces to "Divest from states whose names begin with R, but not from states whose names begin with I." You then claim consistency but everyone else can see what you are doing.
- josephg 3y ago
  > “Divest from states whose names begin with R, but not from states whose names begin with I” I’m not sure why you expect your comment to be convincing. The facts on the ground are obviously different. I sincerely believe those differences matter. Reducing my argument to a straw man only leaves me suspecting you don’t understand my point. In any case, if you take this as axiomatic: > We should divest any occupier state Do you also believe that non-indigenous people are “occupying” the USA, Canada, Australia, India, South Africa and so on? Should we all somehow return “home”? If you see Russia and Israel as the same situation, is it not also the same situation in many other countries? Where do you suggest we draw the line? And where, exactly, do you propose the Israelis should go this time?

jltsiren 3y ago

Can you elaborate this a bit? As far as I know, the University of California never issued an official statement on the war in Ukraine. On our campus, the campus leadership issued their own condemnation about a week after the invasion started. I remember thinking that there must be something going on behind the scenes, as the university usually reacts faster. On the other hand, the university officially condemned the Hamas terrorist attack on October 9, which was the first business day after the attack.

bjourne 3y ago
There are many of examples of educators being penalized for taking positions perceived to to be "anti-Israel": * US professors suspended, probed over Gaza war comments: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-professors-suspended-probed-over-gaza-war-comments-2023-11-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-professors-suspended-pro... * Steven Salaita: U. of I. destroyed my career: https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-steven-salaita-tenure-jews-twitter-tweets-unive-20140929-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-steven-... * UM disciplines prof over Israel letter controversy: https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/10/09/university-michigan-disciplines-professor-over-israel-letter-controversy/1580969002/ https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/10... In the Salaita affair donors made it clear that donations would stop if they hired him. And the university complied. It would have been a nothingburger if his tweets were about Russia. Similarly, many US universities have divested from Russia, but all have consistently refused calls to divest from Israel.

rthkljlkrj 3y ago

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