4 ms·

But the whole point of the JEP is to offer a different and better feature than string interpolation because the JEP claims that string interpolation should be a

by pron 3y ago

But the whole point of the JEP is to offer a different and better feature than string interpolation because the JEP claims that string interpolation should be avoided. Saying that using it for string interpolation is more verbose than the very thing the JEP tried to avoid doing is missing the whole point. The idea is that in the most important cases you should avoid the `STR` processor in favour of a JSON, HTML, or SQL processor. You can agree or disagree with the JEP's goal, but pointing out that the JEP manages to discourage the very thing that it sets out to discourage merely acknowledges that the goal is met.

masklinn 3y ago
> The idea is that in the most important cases you will not use the `STR` processor but rather a JSON, HTML, or SQL processor. That idea is evidently idiotic as demonstrated by javascript which has this exact feature, in a better form (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Template_literals#tagged_templates https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...): the most common template literals by far are untagged.
- pron 3y ago
  Right 'cause JS is so well-trusted with large, important server side software that it must be "evidently idiotic" not to follow exactly in its footsteps. Unfortunately, Brian Goetz and Guy Steele spat this one out off the cuff after only two years of study and experimentation with alternatives and failed to see that it's evidently idiotic; neither did most people who've used the feature.
  - _old_dude_ 3y ago
    Even if I think that Guy Steele is a genius, an argument of authority is always a bad argument. Better listening to the foot soldiers than staying in your high tower. Using '\' instead of '$' does not allow $variable as a shortcut to ${variable} making the syntax objectively harder to read. Using '\' cleverly helps to detect when the processor is missing at compile time but it does not matter because the syntax mandates a big STR in front.
    - pron 3y ago
      > an argument of authority is always a bad argument True, but so was the argument I responded to (JS did it differently) and this is, after all, the internet. But there was also another point I was trying to make, which is that some people seem to have it as their null hypothesis that Java's designers get things wrong or don't do what the people want even though they are not only among the most experienced language designers around but also among the most consistently successful, and usually by a pretty wide margin. I think that means that at the very least they deserve the benefit of the doubt and perhaps another moment of contemplation. > Better listening to the foot soldiers than staying in your high tower. Which is why the designers didn't just trust their guts and experience, but designed the feature in an iterative process with actual "foot soldiers" trying it out (as most new Java features are designed, and as the Preview process was created to support). The criticism, on the other hand, seems to mostly come from people who have not actually tried it out, and it is they who are staying in their high tower. When designing new Java features and asking for feedback we always emphasise that speculating is something anyone can do, and what we need is people trying out the prototype or preview and reporting on their actual experience. Such feedback is always valuable and taken seriously. On the other hand, speculation offered by people who have both given the matter less thought and who have had less experience with the feature than its designers is usually not very useful. It is really very easy for a Java programmer to have an actual impact on the design of new features: Step 1 — try the feature for a while in EA or in Preview; step 2 — report on your experiences to the mailing list. If someone can't even spend the time to do that, how can we know that they've spent more than 30 minutes thinking about the problem before sharing their speculation that we must have done something wrong? Now, it is true that while we know that string interpolation is problematic, we can only speculate that offering it only as a special case of string templates would improve matters. But we figured that if, despite our analysis, we end up being proved wrong, it would be an easy matter to also offer string interpolation as a language feature (e.g. by making it the default processor). > Using '\' instead of '$' does not allow $variable as a shortcut to ${variable} making the syntax objectively harder to read. Python (f-strings), JS, C#, and Ruby -- the most popular language that have had either string interpolation and/or string templates before Java -- also don't allow for such a shortcut (I believe the only top language that does support this shortcut is PHP), and if quite a few language designers didn't think that the shortcut was a significant advantage I don't know how "objective" you can claim it to be. $ also creates some other difficulties, as it is quite common in Java templating libraries (even in JS, the syntax used by templating libraries differs from that used by the language, otherwise it causes bigger annoyances). It would mean that $ would need to be escaped in some contexts and not in others, making adoption of the feature less smooth than we'd want (see https://mail.openjdk.org/pipermail/amber-spec-experts/2023-April/003827.html https://mail.openjdk.org/pipermail/amber-spec-experts/2023-A...). > Using '\' cleverly helps to detect when the processor is missing at compile time but it does not matter because the syntax mandates a big STR in front. Like all instance calls in Java, this instance call also mandates a receiver; it's not some special prefix. If you don't like the "big" STR you can assign that particular template processor object a different name, including one named `$` if you like, because that's a valid Java identifier. I.e. you can do: var $ = STR; $."Hello \{x}!"

by pron 3y ago

masklinn 3y ago

> The idea is that in the most important cases you will not use the `STR` processor but rather a JSON, HTML, or SQL processor. That idea is evidently idiotic as demonstrated by javascript which has this exact feature, in a better form (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Template_literals#tagged_templates https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...): the most common template literals by far are untagged.

pron 3y ago
Right 'cause JS is so well-trusted with large, important server side software that it must be "evidently idiotic" not to follow exactly in its footsteps. Unfortunately, Brian Goetz and Guy Steele spat this one out off the cuff after only two years of study and experimentation with alternatives and failed to see that it's evidently idiotic; neither did most people who've used the feature.
- _old_dude_ 3y ago
  Even if I think that Guy Steele is a genius, an argument of authority is always a bad argument. Better listening to the foot soldiers than staying in your high tower. Using '\' instead of '$' does not allow $variable as a shortcut to ${variable} making the syntax objectively harder to read. Using '\' cleverly helps to detect when the processor is missing at compile time but it does not matter because the syntax mandates a big STR in front.
  - pron 3y ago
    > an argument of authority is always a bad argument True, but so was the argument I responded to (JS did it differently) and this is, after all, the internet. But there was also another point I was trying to make, which is that some people seem to have it as their null hypothesis that Java's designers get things wrong or don't do what the people want even though they are not only among the most experienced language designers around but also among the most consistently successful, and usually by a pretty wide margin. I think that means that at the very least they deserve the benefit of the doubt and perhaps another moment of contemplation. > Better listening to the foot soldiers than staying in your high tower. Which is why the designers didn't just trust their guts and experience, but designed the feature in an iterative process with actual "foot soldiers" trying it out (as most new Java features are designed, and as the Preview process was created to support). The criticism, on the other hand, seems to mostly come from people who have not actually tried it out, and it is they who are staying in their high tower. When designing new Java features and asking for feedback we always emphasise that speculating is something anyone can do, and what we need is people trying out the prototype or preview and reporting on their actual experience. Such feedback is always valuable and taken seriously. On the other hand, speculation offered by people who have both given the matter less thought and who have had less experience with the feature than its designers is usually not very useful. It is really very easy for a Java programmer to have an actual impact on the design of new features: Step 1 — try the feature for a while in EA or in Preview; step 2 — report on your experiences to the mailing list. If someone can't even spend the time to do that, how can we know that they've spent more than 30 minutes thinking about the problem before sharing their speculation that we must have done something wrong? Now, it is true that while we know that string interpolation is problematic, we can only speculate that offering it only as a special case of string templates would improve matters. But we figured that if, despite our analysis, we end up being proved wrong, it would be an easy matter to also offer string interpolation as a language feature (e.g. by making it the default processor). > Using '\' instead of '$' does not allow $variable as a shortcut to ${variable} making the syntax objectively harder to read. Python (f-strings), JS, C#, and Ruby -- the most popular language that have had either string interpolation and/or string templates before Java -- also don't allow for such a shortcut (I believe the only top language that does support this shortcut is PHP), and if quite a few language designers didn't think that the shortcut was a significant advantage I don't know how "objective" you can claim it to be. $ also creates some other difficulties, as it is quite common in Java templating libraries (even in JS, the syntax used by templating libraries differs from that used by the language, otherwise it causes bigger annoyances). It would mean that $ would need to be escaped in some contexts and not in others, making adoption of the feature less smooth than we'd want (see https://mail.openjdk.org/pipermail/amber-spec-experts/2023-April/003827.html https://mail.openjdk.org/pipermail/amber-spec-experts/2023-A...). > Using '\' cleverly helps to detect when the processor is missing at compile time but it does not matter because the syntax mandates a big STR in front. Like all instance calls in Java, this instance call also mandates a receiver; it's not some special prefix. If you don't like the "big" STR you can assign that particular template processor object a different name, including one named `$` if you like, because that's a valid Java identifier. I.e. you can do: var $ = STR; $."Hello \{x}!"