5 ms·

TFA mentions: > hallucinations may also be triggered by at least three different kinds of drugs: psychostimulants (i.e., cocaine or amphetamine), the so-called

TFA mentions: > hallucinations may also be triggered by at least three different kinds of drugs: psychostimulants (i.e., cocaine or amphetamine), the so-called “dissociative anesthetics” (i.e., phencyclidine (PCP) or ketamine), and psychedelics, (i.e., lysergic diethylamid (LSD) and psilocybin). It's my understanding that Psilocybin and LSD do not produce hallucinations (e.g. seeing something which does not exist. I'm aware of the difficulty of qualifying the previous sentence) versus changing your perception of phenomena. The exceptions to this are that these compounds can trigger an individual to enter a psychotic state in which this then becomes possible. Or that in _extremely_ high doses such as the 'white light' territory of LSD. However the vast majority of those who use these substances do not tend to report, for example, conversations with people whom a sober sitter would state were not in the room (like the effects of dissociatives such as Datura). The article seems to agree with my understanding of this nuance. I have found this distinction to be relatively uncommon in reporting otherwise. Initially it was thought that LSD was psychotomimetic (mimicing the symptoms of those with pre-existing psychotic illnesses) and there were hopes that they could be used for study into these conditions. I understand that this is no longer working scientific thinking. A good documentary on these topics is the BBC's LSD The Beyond Within from 1987 [0]. Personally I have reached a personal belief that entheogens allow you traverse the realms of existence [1] within your lifetime. For example, descending into the hell realm or ascending into the deva realm. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-x_5grftlU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-x_5grftlU [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Paths?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Paths?useskin=vector

justatdotin 3y ago
It's my understanding that Psilocybin and LSD do produce hallucinations, but that these are mere artefacts; a sideshow to the main game.
B1FF_PSUVM 3y ago
> allow you traverse the realms of existence I have the more prosaic belief that using a rickety chair allows you to sit on the floor.
- echelon_musk 3y ago
  I might borrow this, thanks. Things don't have to be perfect to provide utility!
jurynulifcation 3y ago
I don't see why it needs to be anything so grandiose. I'm not griping at you, per se, I just don't understand why psychedelics enthusiasts consistently bang the metaphysical drum, as opposed to dedicating themselves to a rational and clear-headed understanding of the phenomenon. Now, obviously, there are various levels of schmess. Many might say, "but look at the complexity of thought of these cultural artifacts surrounding psychedelics!" to which I'd say that, much like St. Anselm's ontological argument (which is poor reasoning, absurd on its face, and yet still more coherent than most psychedelic-induced metaphysical rants), the complexity of thought involved means nothing if it can not be grounded in the everyday experience of a shared, external, objective space. Let's not reinvent religion and cults with psychedelics; let's look at this pivotal moment in time as a chance for us enthusiasts to encourage society to move beyond such poor modes of reasoning. Also: I see shit on LSD, but I know it's not real. I'm hallucinating but not delusional, whereas e.g. datura produces both hallucinations and delusion.
- quickthrowman 3y ago
  > I don't see why it needs to be anything so grandiose. I'm not griping at you, per se, I just don't understand why psychedelics enthusiasts consistently bang the metaphysical drum It’s really annoying. The truth is, there’s nothing profound about tripping, it’s just a drug that changes your perception. There’s nothing intrinsically magical or spiritual about it. I enjoy tripping once or twice a year because it makes things look amazing and music sound cool, and your thoughts seem super profound (but they aren’t).
  - temp0826 3y ago
    I'd suggest a full dose of bufo/5-meo for your next. There really aren't thoughts at the high end yet it is quite a profound experience.
    - quickthrowman 3y ago
      I would very much like to try that, as well as DMT itself. I only have experience with LSD (tested with Ehrlich’s reagent) and mushrooms. I will keep my eyes peeled for some.
quickthrowman 3y ago
> It's my understanding that Psilocybin and LSD do not produce hallucinations (e.g. seeing something which does not exist. I'm aware of the difficulty of qualifying the previous sentence) versus changing your perception of phenomena. Your understanding matches my anecdotal experience over a couple dozen LSD and psilocybin experiences. Largest doses for me are 10 ‘tabs’ and 7g shrooms. The visual effects make colors more vivid, textures will shimmer, objects will morph and warp, some things will have a ‘halo’ around them, things of that nature. I’ve never seen something that isn’t actually a real object while tripping, just perceptual changes on real objects, and I’ve never forgot that I’m tripping while tripping. > Personally I have reached a personal belief that entheogens allow you traverse the realms of existence This I don’t agree with, there’s nothing profound or magical about tripping. It’s just a way to perceive things differently, none of the stuff you think of during a trip is actually profound, it just seems that way. If you don’t believe me, try journaling or recording your thoughts on video while tripping and watch it while sober. It’s simply a chemical that changes the way you perceive things, that’s all. Nothing spiritual or mystical. FWIW I’ve done pretty much every common drug aside from MDMA (excluding research chemicals).
- throwaway44110 3y ago
  I had very little LSD and got very vivid hallucinations out of it. Things like little devils dancing on a normally plain white wall, stick figures running on rooftops...
  - MeImCounting 3y ago
    That, sir, was not LSD.
    - throwaway44110 3y ago
      It most certainly was. Reputable seller, used a test kit.
      - MeImCounting 3y ago
nick__m 3y ago
Personally I have reached a personal belief that entheogens allow you traverse the realms of existence [1] within your lifetime. For example, descending into the hell realm or ascending into the deva realm If you take hallucinogen frequently enough (it took me around 150 trips over 2 years) , you began to see how it work behind the curtain, how it pulls your strings and it loose all it's magic forever. I now "know" that I cannot know anything about the spiritual realm. Spiritual "knowledge" gained by religion, meditation and hallucinogen it's all fake, what we can perceive as spiritual is a distorted projection of the inner working of the mind that gets rationalized as spirituality. That agnosticism is the only rational position. I don't claim that hallucinogen religion and meditation cannot have positive benefits but don't seek spirutal enlightenment to hard or you will eventually into an hole or join a cult.
- csdvrx 3y ago
  > you began to see how it work behind the curtain, how it pulls your strings and it loose all it's magic forever. (...) > That agnosticism is the only rational position. Please tell us more about the insights you have gained leading to this conclusion
  - nick__m 3y ago
    I cannot word it coherently but I will try! Succinctly it feels like the scene in The wizard of Oz where Dorothy see that the Wizard himself is nothing more than an ordinary man behind a curtain. I started an intense spirutal quest after a meditation session¹, that unexpectedly left me disoriented, depressed and generally dysfunctional. My first few trips after that event made me hopeful again but left me curious as I felt that there was a deeper truth to be found. 1-in a college course on meditation (I had the choice between soccer, golf and meditation... in retrospective I should have chosen Golf) At that time most of the more obscure hallucinogen described in Tikal and Phikal were legal and easy to obtain from Sigma-Aldrich at reasonable price and I knew people who could obtain quality LSD. So I tried almost everything that Shuglin described as +++. But it's repeated combination of dextromethorphan (a surprisingly complex drug that is mostly a dissociative) and things in Thikal (LSD, 4-AcO-DMT, 5-meo-mipt...) that pulled on the curtain. 350mg of DXM made me prone to recursive toughts without blocking my ability to remember and the tryptamine brought the spiritual aspect. After thinking about thinking that I am thinking for what felt like a thousand years I came to experience the holodeck effect where you can will any scene into "existence", it's my repeated interactions with my "holodeck" that pulled that metaphorical curtain to reveal that the Wizard was nothing more than a physical process inside me. After that I lost my access to the holodeck, hallucinogens became physically unpleasant and mentally uninteresting. My quest ended as I felt that I had learned what could be learned about spirituality and stopped worrying about a deeper hidden meaning in life. Things happen because they happen and there is no answer to why something instead of nothing (a complete nothingnes, not the nothingnes of a perfect vaccuum) and it doesn't matter!
rufus_foreman 3y ago
>> It's my understanding that Psilocybin and LSD do not produce hallucinations (e.g. seeing something which does not exist. I'm aware of the difficulty of qualifying the previous sentence) versus changing your perception of phenomena. If you sit in a completely dark room on LSD, you will see something other than a completely dark room. Do those things that you see exist? Maybe there's some technical definition of hallucination that isn't being met, but turning a complete lack of visual stimulus into something sounds like a hallucination to me. I was always aware at some level that what I was experiencing was due to the drugs I took, so maybe that has something to do with whether it was a hallucination or not?

justatdotin 3y ago

It's my understanding that Psilocybin and LSD do produce hallucinations, but that these are mere artefacts; a sideshow to the main game.

B1FF_PSUVM 3y ago

> allow you traverse the realms of existence I have the more prosaic belief that using a rickety chair allows you to sit on the floor.

echelon_musk 3y ago
I might borrow this, thanks. Things don't have to be perfect to provide utility!

jurynulifcation 3y ago

I don't see why it needs to be anything so grandiose. I'm not griping at you, per se, I just don't understand why psychedelics enthusiasts consistently bang the metaphysical drum, as opposed to dedicating themselves to a rational and clear-headed understanding of the phenomenon. Now, obviously, there are various levels of schmess. Many might say, "but look at the complexity of thought of these cultural artifacts surrounding psychedelics!" to which I'd say that, much like St. Anselm's ontological argument (which is poor reasoning, absurd on its face, and yet still more coherent than most psychedelic-induced metaphysical rants), the complexity of thought involved means nothing if it can not be grounded in the everyday experience of a shared, external, objective space. Let's not reinvent religion and cults with psychedelics; let's look at this pivotal moment in time as a chance for us enthusiasts to encourage society to move beyond such poor modes of reasoning. Also: I see shit on LSD, but I know it's not real. I'm hallucinating but not delusional, whereas e.g. datura produces both hallucinations and delusion.

quickthrowman 3y ago
> I don't see why it needs to be anything so grandiose. I'm not griping at you, per se, I just don't understand why psychedelics enthusiasts consistently bang the metaphysical drum It’s really annoying. The truth is, there’s nothing profound about tripping, it’s just a drug that changes your perception. There’s nothing intrinsically magical or spiritual about it. I enjoy tripping once or twice a year because it makes things look amazing and music sound cool, and your thoughts seem super profound (but they aren’t).
- temp0826 3y ago
  I'd suggest a full dose of bufo/5-meo for your next. There really aren't thoughts at the high end yet it is quite a profound experience.
  - quickthrowman 3y ago
    I would very much like to try that, as well as DMT itself. I only have experience with LSD (tested with Ehrlich’s reagent) and mushrooms. I will keep my eyes peeled for some.

quickthrowman 3y ago

> It's my understanding that Psilocybin and LSD do not produce hallucinations (e.g. seeing something which does not exist. I'm aware of the difficulty of qualifying the previous sentence) versus changing your perception of phenomena. Your understanding matches my anecdotal experience over a couple dozen LSD and psilocybin experiences. Largest doses for me are 10 ‘tabs’ and 7g shrooms. The visual effects make colors more vivid, textures will shimmer, objects will morph and warp, some things will have a ‘halo’ around them, things of that nature. I’ve never seen something that isn’t actually a real object while tripping, just perceptual changes on real objects, and I’ve never forgot that I’m tripping while tripping. > Personally I have reached a personal belief that entheogens allow you traverse the realms of existence This I don’t agree with, there’s nothing profound or magical about tripping. It’s just a way to perceive things differently, none of the stuff you think of during a trip is actually profound, it just seems that way. If you don’t believe me, try journaling or recording your thoughts on video while tripping and watch it while sober. It’s simply a chemical that changes the way you perceive things, that’s all. Nothing spiritual or mystical. FWIW I’ve done pretty much every common drug aside from MDMA (excluding research chemicals).

throwaway44110 3y ago
I had very little LSD and got very vivid hallucinations out of it. Things like little devils dancing on a normally plain white wall, stick figures running on rooftops...
- MeImCounting 3y ago
  That, sir, was not LSD.
  - throwaway44110 3y ago
    It most certainly was. Reputable seller, used a test kit.
    - MeImCounting 3y ago

nick__m 3y ago

Personally I have reached a personal belief that entheogens allow you traverse the realms of existence [1] within your lifetime. For example, descending into the hell realm or ascending into the deva realm If you take hallucinogen frequently enough (it took me around 150 trips over 2 years) , you began to see how it work behind the curtain, how it pulls your strings and it loose all it's magic forever. I now "know" that I cannot know anything about the spiritual realm. Spiritual "knowledge" gained by religion, meditation and hallucinogen it's all fake, what we can perceive as spiritual is a distorted projection of the inner working of the mind that gets rationalized as spirituality. That agnosticism is the only rational position. I don't claim that hallucinogen religion and meditation cannot have positive benefits but don't seek spirutal enlightenment to hard or you will eventually into an hole or join a cult.

csdvrx 3y ago
> you began to see how it work behind the curtain, how it pulls your strings and it loose all it's magic forever. (...) > That agnosticism is the only rational position. Please tell us more about the insights you have gained leading to this conclusion
- nick__m 3y ago
  I cannot word it coherently but I will try! Succinctly it feels like the scene in The wizard of Oz where Dorothy see that the Wizard himself is nothing more than an ordinary man behind a curtain. I started an intense spirutal quest after a meditation session¹, that unexpectedly left me disoriented, depressed and generally dysfunctional. My first few trips after that event made me hopeful again but left me curious as I felt that there was a deeper truth to be found. 1-in a college course on meditation (I had the choice between soccer, golf and meditation... in retrospective I should have chosen Golf) At that time most of the more obscure hallucinogen described in Tikal and Phikal were legal and easy to obtain from Sigma-Aldrich at reasonable price and I knew people who could obtain quality LSD. So I tried almost everything that Shuglin described as +++. But it's repeated combination of dextromethorphan (a surprisingly complex drug that is mostly a dissociative) and things in Thikal (LSD, 4-AcO-DMT, 5-meo-mipt...) that pulled on the curtain. 350mg of DXM made me prone to recursive toughts without blocking my ability to remember and the tryptamine brought the spiritual aspect. After thinking about thinking that I am thinking for what felt like a thousand years I came to experience the holodeck effect where you can will any scene into "existence", it's my repeated interactions with my "holodeck" that pulled that metaphorical curtain to reveal that the Wizard was nothing more than a physical process inside me. After that I lost my access to the holodeck, hallucinogens became physically unpleasant and mentally uninteresting. My quest ended as I felt that I had learned what could be learned about spirituality and stopped worrying about a deeper hidden meaning in life. Things happen because they happen and there is no answer to why something instead of nothing (a complete nothingnes, not the nothingnes of a perfect vaccuum) and it doesn't matter!

rufus_foreman 3y ago

>> It's my understanding that Psilocybin and LSD do not produce hallucinations (e.g. seeing something which does not exist. I'm aware of the difficulty of qualifying the previous sentence) versus changing your perception of phenomena. If you sit in a completely dark room on LSD, you will see something other than a completely dark room. Do those things that you see exist? Maybe there's some technical definition of hallucination that isn't being met, but turning a complete lack of visual stimulus into something sounds like a hallucination to me. I was always aware at some level that what I was experiencing was due to the drugs I took, so maybe that has something to do with whether it was a hallucination or not?