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Since switching to Clang more than 10 years ago, Objective-C, C++ and Swift are first-class citizens in the Apple development environment. You can mix Objective

Since switching to Clang more than 10 years ago, Objective-C, C++ and Swift are first-class citizens in the Apple development environment. You can mix Objective-C and C++ in mm files and it's a smooth experience in general. The actual language becomes less relevant when you have the same backend.

szundi 3y ago
Interesting how they started to do the same as Microsoft did back then - use the API from every language that matters and what Microsoft wanted to matter more.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Unfortunately it didn't work that well on Microsoft side, due to the politics between DevDiv (.NET, VS, Azure) and WinDev (C++, Windows, XBox). That is how you end with COM stuff, C++ only SDKs, and .NET dev community having to implementing bindings ourselves.
  - valty 3y ago
    The Windows development ecosystem is such a mess. It's amazing how Apple never toyed with any managed runtimes this whole time.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Objective-C and Swift are managed languages, hence their language runtimes. Being ahead of time compiled doesn't mean a language isn't managed. Rather automatic resources management, reflection, infrastructure for dynamic loading of plugins,...
      - valty 3y ago
        We're just arguing about the word "managed" now. ChatGPT says: Is objective-c a managed language?...Objective-C is not typically considered a "managed language" in the sense that languages like Java or C# are."
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Since when is ChatGPT a sound source of CS knowledge?
jb1991 3y ago
C++ is not first class on Apple platforms. The main APIs are only in Swift or ObjC. You can use C++ in your app, but you will need an actual first-class language to interact with the OS and UI.
- olliej 3y ago
  Well that’s a completely false statement. C++ is a first class language, and all C++ APIs and ABIs are stable. It is used extensively across macOS and iOS, and has large amounts of support through out the apple provided dev tools. Significant improvements to the C++ UX were part of the motivation for clang. C++ is not used for the majority of platform APIs because of all the problems, difficulties, and costs of ensuring ABI stability. C++ ABIs are notoriously fragile, which is a problem objc does not have, and swift was designed specifically to reduce ABI issues (that’s part of the reason generics are implemented as they are)
  - jasode 3y ago
    >Well that’s a completely false statement. C++ is a first class language, I understand your clarification but gp (jb1991) is just using a different meaning of "first class" than you and gp (bluetomcat). For some people, a "first class language status" would also include examples such as: - C++ would be a menu dropdown choice in Xcode project options. In Xcode's "choose options for your new project", the only language options for "Storyboard"/"XIB" are "Swift" and "Objective-C". - C++ would be the programming language and API for Apple's VR headset ARKit. Instead, it requires Swift and SwiftUI. - C++ language would be prominently featured as the code examples in Apple WWDC developer conferences and presentations. E.g. go to WWDC sessions page and compare Ctrl+F search hits count for "C++" vs "Swift": https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/sessions/ https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/sessions/ Apple documentation has the sentence: "Swift is intended as a replacement for C-based languages (C, C++, and Objective-C)." -- from https://github.com/apple/swift/blob/main/docs/tools/swift.pod#:~:text=Swift%20is%20intended%20as%20a%20replacement%20for%20C%2Dbased%20languages%20(C%2C%20C%2B%2B%2C%20and%20Objective%2DC) https://github.com/apple/swift/blob/main/docs/tools/swift.po.... Understandable that some don't include the above bullets but just pointing out that's what "1st class language" means to others. Maybe it's a sign that the term "first class" is too ambiguous and just invites disagreements.

szundi 3y ago

Interesting how they started to do the same as Microsoft did back then - use the API from every language that matters and what Microsoft wanted to matter more.

pjmlp 3y ago
Unfortunately it didn't work that well on Microsoft side, due to the politics between DevDiv (.NET, VS, Azure) and WinDev (C++, Windows, XBox). That is how you end with COM stuff, C++ only SDKs, and .NET dev community having to implementing bindings ourselves.
- valty 3y ago
  The Windows development ecosystem is such a mess. It's amazing how Apple never toyed with any managed runtimes this whole time.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Objective-C and Swift are managed languages, hence their language runtimes. Being ahead of time compiled doesn't mean a language isn't managed. Rather automatic resources management, reflection, infrastructure for dynamic loading of plugins,...
    - valty 3y ago
      We're just arguing about the word "managed" now. ChatGPT says: Is objective-c a managed language?...Objective-C is not typically considered a "managed language" in the sense that languages like Java or C# are."
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Since when is ChatGPT a sound source of CS knowledge?

jb1991 3y ago

C++ is not first class on Apple platforms. The main APIs are only in Swift or ObjC. You can use C++ in your app, but you will need an actual first-class language to interact with the OS and UI.

olliej 3y ago
Well that’s a completely false statement. C++ is a first class language, and all C++ APIs and ABIs are stable. It is used extensively across macOS and iOS, and has large amounts of support through out the apple provided dev tools. Significant improvements to the C++ UX were part of the motivation for clang. C++ is not used for the majority of platform APIs because of all the problems, difficulties, and costs of ensuring ABI stability. C++ ABIs are notoriously fragile, which is a problem objc does not have, and swift was designed specifically to reduce ABI issues (that’s part of the reason generics are implemented as they are)
- jasode 3y ago
  >Well that’s a completely false statement. C++ is a first class language, I understand your clarification but gp (jb1991) is just using a different meaning of "first class" than you and gp (bluetomcat). For some people, a "first class language status" would also include examples such as: - C++ would be a menu dropdown choice in Xcode project options. In Xcode's "choose options for your new project", the only language options for "Storyboard"/"XIB" are "Swift" and "Objective-C". - C++ would be the programming language and API for Apple's VR headset ARKit. Instead, it requires Swift and SwiftUI. - C++ language would be prominently featured as the code examples in Apple WWDC developer conferences and presentations. E.g. go to WWDC sessions page and compare Ctrl+F search hits count for "C++" vs "Swift": https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/sessions/ https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/sessions/ Apple documentation has the sentence: "Swift is intended as a replacement for C-based languages (C, C++, and Objective-C)." -- from https://github.com/apple/swift/blob/main/docs/tools/swift.pod#:~:text=Swift%20is%20intended%20as%20a%20replacement%20for%20C%2Dbased%20languages%20(C%2C%20C%2B%2B%2C%20and%20Objective%2DC) https://github.com/apple/swift/blob/main/docs/tools/swift.po.... Understandable that some don't include the above bullets but just pointing out that's what "1st class language" means to others. Maybe it's a sign that the term "first class" is too ambiguous and just invites disagreements.