4 ms·

Yes, of course, I completely agree and I plan to come to live in your home with you. I'll bring all my relatives also with me, so please plan your expenses acco

by genman 3y ago

Yes, of course, I completely agree and I plan to come to live in your home with you. I'll bring all my relatives also with me, so please plan your expenses accordingly.

Spivak 3y ago
Borders and personal property aren't the same and you know that. It would be "I'm buying land in your neighborhood, building a house, and bringing all my relatives." We have open borders between 50 different countries and people seem to like it.
- genman 3y ago
  So you propose that if a new natural resource is discovered in one place then everybody should flock to that place and exploit it until it is exhausted and then move to another place? While I am supportive toward freedom of movement, I also believe that there should be certain control to limit over exploitation. The example with the home was perfectly fine to illustrate that there are always limits as the resources are not unbounded.
rafaelero 3y ago
I think he meant countries borders, which should probably be the conclusion you would have reached if you weren't being so obtuse.
- genman 3y ago
  The example was consciously made like this to illustrate clear limits of resources. While I support freedom of movement in general, it for sure creates numerous problems that have been on multiple occasions also discussed here as it can happen also within a single country when single place will attract too many people in too short time span. It is a common demand here by fresh immigrants of SF to the people who have lived there for generations to make room for them, destroy their homes as they want to move in instead. I think it very closely correlates with my example, to be honest.
  - piloto_ciego 3y ago
    There’s plenty of room in the country, and arguably I have plenty of room in my home. Come on by, I usually have beer.
    - genman 3y ago
      I love guests too. But they have this one nice property - they will leave. I will not. I will be also not your new girlfriend. So how many of me you can take into your home? Only me? 2 of me? 10 of me? Will your quality of life improve or decline?
      - piloto_ciego 3y ago
        Right, but let’s be realistic the analogy of houses is not the same as a country - there’s plenty of room in all of them for the most part. And legitimately, I’ve had people crash on my couch when they were in a rough spot for weeks and weeks. Literally all of them wanted their own space and as soon as they were on their feet, they left. If you’re in trouble, you’re more than welcome here. Happy to help, though I don’t know what I can do.
        genman 3y ago
        The analogy is fair. See, when it comes to your home, you expect people to leave and not come to occupy your home, most likely because it will limit your own autonomy. There are borders you are not willing to cross. It is not different with countries. I think that immigration is perfectly fine until a country can absorb new people but too many people too fast is going to create troubles. I think that you can imagine very well a situation when you are kind and let somebody into your home but they now start to make their own rules - in your home. If it gets unbearable for you in your home then perhaps you can call police, but if you make such a mistake on the country level then there is less remedies - so you have to be considerably more careful. Let's imagine that four hundred million Chinese would move into US in the world without borders and now they vote into power a new political party that will prohibit all the other political parties. Why? Perhaps only because this is the only way they know about and they didn't have the time to gradually learn other political possibilities or worse they are instructed to do so by their leaders. Destruction of democratic system using democratic means is not rare. Perhaps the most known one is rise of Nazis in Germany. Most obvious recent example is rise of Putin in Russia but it also happened for example in Egypt, where Muslim Brotherhood won elections and then attempted to destroy the democratic system of Egypt to enforce sharia, and this was preempted by the events in Gaza where Muslim Brotherhood offshoot Hamas did exactly the same, but successfully. The world without borders will also mean that a malicious and well organized political force can move around the globe and take over local power using seemingly benign methods instead of military power. So while your idea sounds something to root for, it is also incredibly naive and dangerous in the real world we live in.
piloto_ciego 3y ago
You’re absolutely welcome in my home, I’m not going to doc myself on the internet, but Xenia requires being friendly to travelers and guests.
- genman 3y ago
  Ok, so you don't mind if I take over all your rooms? You can live in the basement if you have one. It looks like you try to project it like it would be like visiting, nope, no such luck, I will come forever and take all my relatives with me and we'll do what ever we want. Of course you would have the right for your own opinion but as you are now just a minority then that would be just that - an opinion.
  - piloto_ciego 3y ago
    Oh, you’re a racist doing replacement theory nonsense. Gotcha, alright well, you specifically you are not welcome, and GFY.
    - genman 3y ago
      I do not follow conspiracy theories, but perhaps you are more familiar with this. I really do not care about what skin color people have if they share the same general values I have like the right for freedom of speech and right for religious freedom (that includes absence of religion). Like I explained in another post, these fundamental values can be threatened by a seemingly demographic process. One such very clear example is how Nazis rose to power through democratic process. More recent examples are how Putin usurped power in Russia or how Muslim Brotherhood attempted to do the same in Egypt to enforce sharia (after its offshoot Hamas did it successfully in Gaza a half a decade earlier). In another comment I gave an example how four hundred million of Chinese could overtake and destroy democracy in US by democratic means but yes, it can happen with any politically motivated group of people. It can be also of course people with Muslim background who believe in Islamic supremacy or other such racist nonsense. It is completely possible and has happened already in US once. Ask about this from Native Americans. I do not know what this replacement theory is about but such processes I described here are completely possible and can be exploited by foreign political powers. But my previous comment was more general. The main idea that you intentionally ignore and try to neglect with hostile comments like the previous one is that every person has some limit they can tolerate. It would be unfair if you accepted somebody into your home and they start to make demands instead and dictate what you can and can't do. In the home example the undesired outcome will manifest itself rapidly but in the case of larger system the effect will take some time to appear until large enough change has happened. For example it is happening in SF where newcomers are demanding that the people who have lived there for multiple generations should destroy their homes to make place for them instead - fortunately it is something benign like this and not a demand to establish one party system or install sharia.

by genman 3y ago

Yes, of course, I completely agree and I plan to come to live in your home with you. I'll bring all my relatives also with me, so please plan your expenses accordingly.

Spivak 3y ago

Borders and personal property aren't the same and you know that. It would be "I'm buying land in your neighborhood, building a house, and bringing all my relatives." We have open borders between 50 different countries and people seem to like it.

genman 3y ago
So you propose that if a new natural resource is discovered in one place then everybody should flock to that place and exploit it until it is exhausted and then move to another place? While I am supportive toward freedom of movement, I also believe that there should be certain control to limit over exploitation. The example with the home was perfectly fine to illustrate that there are always limits as the resources are not unbounded.

rafaelero 3y ago

I think he meant countries borders, which should probably be the conclusion you would have reached if you weren't being so obtuse.

genman 3y ago
The example was consciously made like this to illustrate clear limits of resources. While I support freedom of movement in general, it for sure creates numerous problems that have been on multiple occasions also discussed here as it can happen also within a single country when single place will attract too many people in too short time span. It is a common demand here by fresh immigrants of SF to the people who have lived there for generations to make room for them, destroy their homes as they want to move in instead. I think it very closely correlates with my example, to be honest.
- piloto_ciego 3y ago
  There’s plenty of room in the country, and arguably I have plenty of room in my home. Come on by, I usually have beer.
  - genman 3y ago
    I love guests too. But they have this one nice property - they will leave. I will not. I will be also not your new girlfriend. So how many of me you can take into your home? Only me? 2 of me? 10 of me? Will your quality of life improve or decline?
    - piloto_ciego 3y ago
      Right, but let’s be realistic the analogy of houses is not the same as a country - there’s plenty of room in all of them for the most part. And legitimately, I’ve had people crash on my couch when they were in a rough spot for weeks and weeks. Literally all of them wanted their own space and as soon as they were on their feet, they left. If you’re in trouble, you’re more than welcome here. Happy to help, though I don’t know what I can do.
      - genman 3y ago
        The analogy is fair. See, when it comes to your home, you expect people to leave and not come to occupy your home, most likely because it will limit your own autonomy. There are borders you are not willing to cross. It is not different with countries. I think that immigration is perfectly fine until a country can absorb new people but too many people too fast is going to create troubles. I think that you can imagine very well a situation when you are kind and let somebody into your home but they now start to make their own rules - in your home. If it gets unbearable for you in your home then perhaps you can call police, but if you make such a mistake on the country level then there is less remedies - so you have to be considerably more careful. Let's imagine that four hundred million Chinese would move into US in the world without borders and now they vote into power a new political party that will prohibit all the other political parties. Why? Perhaps only because this is the only way they know about and they didn't have the time to gradually learn other political possibilities or worse they are instructed to do so by their leaders. Destruction of democratic system using democratic means is not rare. Perhaps the most known one is rise of Nazis in Germany. Most obvious recent example is rise of Putin in Russia but it also happened for example in Egypt, where Muslim Brotherhood won elections and then attempted to destroy the democratic system of Egypt to enforce sharia, and this was preempted by the events in Gaza where Muslim Brotherhood offshoot Hamas did exactly the same, but successfully. The world without borders will also mean that a malicious and well organized political force can move around the globe and take over local power using seemingly benign methods instead of military power. So while your idea sounds something to root for, it is also incredibly naive and dangerous in the real world we live in.

piloto_ciego 3y ago

You’re absolutely welcome in my home, I’m not going to doc myself on the internet, but Xenia requires being friendly to travelers and guests.

genman 3y ago
Ok, so you don't mind if I take over all your rooms? You can live in the basement if you have one. It looks like you try to project it like it would be like visiting, nope, no such luck, I will come forever and take all my relatives with me and we'll do what ever we want. Of course you would have the right for your own opinion but as you are now just a minority then that would be just that - an opinion.
- piloto_ciego 3y ago
  Oh, you’re a racist doing replacement theory nonsense. Gotcha, alright well, you specifically you are not welcome, and GFY.
  - genman 3y ago
    I do not follow conspiracy theories, but perhaps you are more familiar with this. I really do not care about what skin color people have if they share the same general values I have like the right for freedom of speech and right for religious freedom (that includes absence of religion). Like I explained in another post, these fundamental values can be threatened by a seemingly demographic process. One such very clear example is how Nazis rose to power through democratic process. More recent examples are how Putin usurped power in Russia or how Muslim Brotherhood attempted to do the same in Egypt to enforce sharia (after its offshoot Hamas did it successfully in Gaza a half a decade earlier). In another comment I gave an example how four hundred million of Chinese could overtake and destroy democracy in US by democratic means but yes, it can happen with any politically motivated group of people. It can be also of course people with Muslim background who believe in Islamic supremacy or other such racist nonsense. It is completely possible and has happened already in US once. Ask about this from Native Americans. I do not know what this replacement theory is about but such processes I described here are completely possible and can be exploited by foreign political powers. But my previous comment was more general. The main idea that you intentionally ignore and try to neglect with hostile comments like the previous one is that every person has some limit they can tolerate. It would be unfair if you accepted somebody into your home and they start to make demands instead and dictate what you can and can't do. In the home example the undesired outcome will manifest itself rapidly but in the case of larger system the effect will take some time to appear until large enough change has happened. For example it is happening in SF where newcomers are demanding that the people who have lived there for multiple generations should destroy their homes to make place for them instead - fortunately it is something benign like this and not a demand to establish one party system or install sharia.