9 ms·

Borders are a curse on our world…

rexpop 3y ago
> The border is not just a wall. It’s not just a line on a map. It’s not any particular physical location. It’s a power structure, a system of control. The border is everywhere that people live in fear of deportation, everywhere migrants are denied the rights accorded citizens, everywhere human beings are segregated into included and excluded. — CrimethInc, No Wall They Can Build[0] 0. https://crimethinc.com/books/no-wall-they-can-build https://crimethinc.com/books/no-wall-they-can-build
- pc86 3y ago
  What rights are legal migrants denied that are accorded to citizens?
  - robotresearcher 3y ago
    Voting. Unconditional residence. Green card holders have to spend most of their time in the US or lose their permanent resident status. No time out. Green cards have to be renewed.
    - pc86 3y ago
      Good luck convincing anyone outside of the fringe that non-citizens should have voting rights. I agree with you on the other two, though I certainly see a legitimate purpose in green cards having a renewal process. But you can get a re-entry permit and be outside of the US for up to 2 years and retain your green card status, it doesn't seem particularly onerous.
      - robotresearcher 3y ago
        I wasn't arguing that non-citizens should have these rights, just stating some of the rights that they (we, in my case) don't have.
- genman 3y ago
  While there is certain truth in it, I believe that a man needs certain belonging, certain responsibility. I have witnessed a (state wide) culture without it, it resulted in careless exploitation of natural resources and wide scale pollution and contamination of nature.
  - rexpop 3y ago
    I appreciate your remark. Perhaps you agree that part of what's missing from the worst of immigration (including settler colonialism) is humility and reverence for the land?
    - genman 3y ago
      Yes, for sure. * as a side note: I disagree with some false propaganda that tries to portrait Jewish people in Israel as settler colonists - you can't be a colonist on your own land - that would be absurd.
  - piloto_ciego 3y ago
    I belong to the earth, my family and my community… I don’t need an imaginary line to tell me where I belong.
    - genman 3y ago
      And yet you are incredibly naive to not understand the possibility that this "your community" can be easily overtaken and destroyed in the borderless world.
pfannkuchen 3y ago
Are you also opposed to multi celled organisms? Basically the same concept at a different layer of abstraction.
- episteme 3y ago
  This is a false analogy. Should states have borders like countries? Cities? Towns? Individuals streets? Reducing the argument down to 'we have to split the world into cells somehow' doesn't really progress the discussion of whether immigrants should have any less rights than natives.
genman 3y ago
Yes, of course, I completely agree and I plan to come to live in your home with you. I'll bring all my relatives also with me, so please plan your expenses accordingly.
- Spivak 3y ago
  Borders and personal property aren't the same and you know that. It would be "I'm buying land in your neighborhood, building a house, and bringing all my relatives." We have open borders between 50 different countries and people seem to like it.
  - genman 3y ago
    So you propose that if a new natural resource is discovered in one place then everybody should flock to that place and exploit it until it is exhausted and then move to another place? While I am supportive toward freedom of movement, I also believe that there should be certain control to limit over exploitation. The example with the home was perfectly fine to illustrate that there are always limits as the resources are not unbounded.
- rafaelero 3y ago
  I think he meant countries borders, which should probably be the conclusion you would have reached if you weren't being so obtuse.
  - genman 3y ago
    The example was consciously made like this to illustrate clear limits of resources. While I support freedom of movement in general, it for sure creates numerous problems that have been on multiple occasions also discussed here as it can happen also within a single country when single place will attract too many people in too short time span. It is a common demand here by fresh immigrants of SF to the people who have lived there for generations to make room for them, destroy their homes as they want to move in instead. I think it very closely correlates with my example, to be honest.

> The border is not just a wall. It’s not just a line on a map. It’s not any particular physical location. It’s a power structure, a system of control. The border is everywhere that people live in fear of deportation, everywhere migrants are denied the rights accorded citizens, everywhere human beings are segregated into included and excluded. — CrimethInc, No Wall They Can Build[0] 0. https://crimethinc.com/books/no-wall-they-can-build https://crimethinc.com/books/no-wall-they-can-build

pc86 3y ago
What rights are legal migrants denied that are accorded to citizens?
- robotresearcher 3y ago
  Voting. Unconditional residence. Green card holders have to spend most of their time in the US or lose their permanent resident status. No time out. Green cards have to be renewed.
  - pc86 3y ago
    Good luck convincing anyone outside of the fringe that non-citizens should have voting rights. I agree with you on the other two, though I certainly see a legitimate purpose in green cards having a renewal process. But you can get a re-entry permit and be outside of the US for up to 2 years and retain your green card status, it doesn't seem particularly onerous.
    - robotresearcher 3y ago
      I wasn't arguing that non-citizens should have these rights, just stating some of the rights that they (we, in my case) don't have.
genman 3y ago
While there is certain truth in it, I believe that a man needs certain belonging, certain responsibility. I have witnessed a (state wide) culture without it, it resulted in careless exploitation of natural resources and wide scale pollution and contamination of nature.
- rexpop 3y ago
  I appreciate your remark. Perhaps you agree that part of what's missing from the worst of immigration (including settler colonialism) is humility and reverence for the land?
  - genman 3y ago
    Yes, for sure. * as a side note: I disagree with some false propaganda that tries to portrait Jewish people in Israel as settler colonists - you can't be a colonist on your own land - that would be absurd.
- piloto_ciego 3y ago
  I belong to the earth, my family and my community… I don’t need an imaginary line to tell me where I belong.
  - genman 3y ago
    And yet you are incredibly naive to not understand the possibility that this "your community" can be easily overtaken and destroyed in the borderless world.

pfannkuchen 3y ago

Are you also opposed to multi celled organisms? Basically the same concept at a different layer of abstraction.

episteme 3y ago
This is a false analogy. Should states have borders like countries? Cities? Towns? Individuals streets? Reducing the argument down to 'we have to split the world into cells somehow' doesn't really progress the discussion of whether immigrants should have any less rights than natives.

genman 3y ago

Yes, of course, I completely agree and I plan to come to live in your home with you. I'll bring all my relatives also with me, so please plan your expenses accordingly.

Spivak 3y ago
Borders and personal property aren't the same and you know that. It would be "I'm buying land in your neighborhood, building a house, and bringing all my relatives." We have open borders between 50 different countries and people seem to like it.
- genman 3y ago
  So you propose that if a new natural resource is discovered in one place then everybody should flock to that place and exploit it until it is exhausted and then move to another place? While I am supportive toward freedom of movement, I also believe that there should be certain control to limit over exploitation. The example with the home was perfectly fine to illustrate that there are always limits as the resources are not unbounded.
rafaelero 3y ago
I think he meant countries borders, which should probably be the conclusion you would have reached if you weren't being so obtuse.
- genman 3y ago
  The example was consciously made like this to illustrate clear limits of resources. While I support freedom of movement in general, it for sure creates numerous problems that have been on multiple occasions also discussed here as it can happen also within a single country when single place will attract too many people in too short time span. It is a common demand here by fresh immigrants of SF to the people who have lived there for generations to make room for them, destroy their homes as they want to move in instead. I think it very closely correlates with my example, to be honest.