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You never chose option 1 or 2 :) "that isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals" Exactly so to resolve the current situation

You never chose option 1 or 2 :) "that isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals" Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews. They can press charges while Hamas continues to rape and murder and wait and then even with a conviction, the rape and murder continues or they can do what they are doing now and resolve the situation. Any long term solutions can come later. Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships?

bhouston 3y ago
> You never chose option 1 or 2 :) You provided a false dichotomy, I don't have to choose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma > Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. I support removing Hamas but not cutting off aid, electricity, fuel, food and not indiscriminate bombing. And I think pairing that with a robust drive to a 2-state solution is also key. You have to provide hope and show you are not just trying to take land or engage in ethnic cleansing, e.g: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-conce... > Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews. I would expect that some of both Hamas and Israeli leadership will be charged and also some will be found guilty of war crimes if ICC filed charges. ICC has been gun shy to get involved though, so it isn't clear if it will happen. > Any long term solutions can come later. Always! This is why the occupation has lasted so long. > Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships? Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defence. It is charged with genocide with is different and not what the US is doing in Yemen. Many leaders said things that sound like genocidal statements and it has cut off food, water, electricity and fuel. 80% of starving people in the world are in Gaza. Here is the UK pleading with Israel to turn the water back on and let in food: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-to-let-aid-through-and-save-lives-in-gaza-britain-has-a-plan-to-help-that-happen-article-by-the-foreign-secretary https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-t...
- wonderwonder 3y ago
  For you personally it is a false dichotomy, for Israel its a real choice they had to make. Hamas has proven that they seize the vast majority of aid sent to Gaza both during the current war and historically. That is why its leaders are billionaires. "Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defense" of course not, but that is what this war is, a war of self defense to ensure that what happened does not happen again. America is not striking the Houthis in self defense, Yemen is on the other side of the world from the US they are not a risk to America the nation at all. Hamas is a clear threat to Israeli citizens. Leaders can say whatever they want, they can only charge on actions. Indeed Hamas openly calls for the destruction of Israel and America. Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians, indeed far more than the US did in Iraq. I hear what you are saying and I think your heart is in the right place but from my perspective if someone kills your citizens / family and remains an active threat, it is the governments responsibility to hunt them to the end of the earth and neutralize that threat in the most expedient manner possible.
  - johnnyworker 3y ago
    > Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians What civilians? President Herzog said there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, as did many other politicians. IDF soldiers are singing about how there are "no uninvolved civilians". Just turning off water TO PUNISH CIVILIANS isn't going out of one's way to not harm them. Or just sniping people out of nowhere, including a 70 year old woman with a white flag fleeing with a child. Or just shooting youth in the West Bank, then running over the body with an army truck. You are telling us we didn't see what we saw because you don't face it. That's a fool's errand. > "Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating they way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated"-- Yoav Kisch, Minister of Education, 09/10/2023 > "There are no innocent civilians in Gaza" -- Isaac Herzog, President, 13/10/2023 > “There is no humanitarian crisis.” [..] “the humanitarian crisis at the moment is in Israel.” -- Tzipi Hotovely, Israeli Ambassador to the UK, 16/10/2023 3 of hundreds such statements.

bhouston 3y ago

> You never chose option 1 or 2 :) You provided a false dichotomy, I don't have to choose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma > Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. I support removing Hamas but not cutting off aid, electricity, fuel, food and not indiscriminate bombing. And I think pairing that with a robust drive to a 2-state solution is also key. You have to provide hope and show you are not just trying to take land or engage in ethnic cleansing, e.g: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-conce... > Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews. I would expect that some of both Hamas and Israeli leadership will be charged and also some will be found guilty of war crimes if ICC filed charges. ICC has been gun shy to get involved though, so it isn't clear if it will happen. > Any long term solutions can come later. Always! This is why the occupation has lasted so long. > Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships? Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defence. It is charged with genocide with is different and not what the US is doing in Yemen. Many leaders said things that sound like genocidal statements and it has cut off food, water, electricity and fuel. 80% of starving people in the world are in Gaza. Here is the UK pleading with Israel to turn the water back on and let in food: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-to-let-aid-through-and-save-lives-in-gaza-britain-has-a-plan-to-help-that-happen-article-by-the-foreign-secretary https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-t...

wonderwonder 3y ago
For you personally it is a false dichotomy, for Israel its a real choice they had to make. Hamas has proven that they seize the vast majority of aid sent to Gaza both during the current war and historically. That is why its leaders are billionaires. "Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defense" of course not, but that is what this war is, a war of self defense to ensure that what happened does not happen again. America is not striking the Houthis in self defense, Yemen is on the other side of the world from the US they are not a risk to America the nation at all. Hamas is a clear threat to Israeli citizens. Leaders can say whatever they want, they can only charge on actions. Indeed Hamas openly calls for the destruction of Israel and America. Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians, indeed far more than the US did in Iraq. I hear what you are saying and I think your heart is in the right place but from my perspective if someone kills your citizens / family and remains an active threat, it is the governments responsibility to hunt them to the end of the earth and neutralize that threat in the most expedient manner possible.
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  > Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians What civilians? President Herzog said there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, as did many other politicians. IDF soldiers are singing about how there are "no uninvolved civilians". Just turning off water TO PUNISH CIVILIANS isn't going out of one's way to not harm them. Or just sniping people out of nowhere, including a 70 year old woman with a white flag fleeing with a child. Or just shooting youth in the West Bank, then running over the body with an army truck. You are telling us we didn't see what we saw because you don't face it. That's a fool's errand. > "Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating they way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated"-- Yoav Kisch, Minister of Education, 09/10/2023 > "There are no innocent civilians in Gaza" -- Isaac Herzog, President, 13/10/2023 > “There is no humanitarian crisis.” [..] “the humanitarian crisis at the moment is in Israel.” -- Tzipi Hotovely, Israeli Ambassador to the UK, 16/10/2023 3 of hundreds such statements.