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> The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? That isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals. > Or nothing changes and Ham

> The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? That isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals. > Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing? With regards to the ICC, there would be international arrest warrants for Hamas leaders and there would be incredibly pressure on a lot of countries to arrest them if they were present in their countries or transiting through them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the... > Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas. You do realize that Netanyahu, and other radicals in the Israeli government, has actually long purposely boosted Hamas by allowing financial transfers and has purposely hurt the Palestinian moderates? Netanyahu viewed supporting Hamas as a way to prevent a 2 state solution: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolste... https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/ https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian... “The Palestinian Authority is a burden, and Hamas is an asset.” So yeah, there is a clear solution here towards a 2-state solution where both Israeli and Palestinians have freedom and safety and self-determination. Providing hope is the best way to stop the growth of radical organizations. > you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die. Even President Biden said that Israel's bombing was indiscriminate. Almost half of the bombs dropped where dumb bombs, that is not targeted at all: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessm...

wonderwonder 3y ago
You never chose option 1 or 2 :) "that isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals" Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews. They can press charges while Hamas continues to rape and murder and wait and then even with a conviction, the rape and murder continues or they can do what they are doing now and resolve the situation. Any long term solutions can come later. Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships?
- bhouston 3y ago
  > You never chose option 1 or 2 :) You provided a false dichotomy, I don't have to choose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma > Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. I support removing Hamas but not cutting off aid, electricity, fuel, food and not indiscriminate bombing. And I think pairing that with a robust drive to a 2-state solution is also key. You have to provide hope and show you are not just trying to take land or engage in ethnic cleansing, e.g: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-conce... > Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews. I would expect that some of both Hamas and Israeli leadership will be charged and also some will be found guilty of war crimes if ICC filed charges. ICC has been gun shy to get involved though, so it isn't clear if it will happen. > Any long term solutions can come later. Always! This is why the occupation has lasted so long. > Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships? Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defence. It is charged with genocide with is different and not what the US is doing in Yemen. Many leaders said things that sound like genocidal statements and it has cut off food, water, electricity and fuel. 80% of starving people in the world are in Gaza. Here is the UK pleading with Israel to turn the water back on and let in food: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-to-let-aid-through-and-save-lives-in-gaza-britain-has-a-plan-to-help-that-happen-article-by-the-foreign-secretary https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-t...
  - wonderwonder 3y ago
    For you personally it is a false dichotomy, for Israel its a real choice they had to make. Hamas has proven that they seize the vast majority of aid sent to Gaza both during the current war and historically. That is why its leaders are billionaires. "Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defense" of course not, but that is what this war is, a war of self defense to ensure that what happened does not happen again. America is not striking the Houthis in self defense, Yemen is on the other side of the world from the US they are not a risk to America the nation at all. Hamas is a clear threat to Israeli citizens. Leaders can say whatever they want, they can only charge on actions. Indeed Hamas openly calls for the destruction of Israel and America. Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians, indeed far more than the US did in Iraq. I hear what you are saying and I think your heart is in the right place but from my perspective if someone kills your citizens / family and remains an active threat, it is the governments responsibility to hunt them to the end of the earth and neutralize that threat in the most expedient manner possible.

wonderwonder 3y ago

You never chose option 1 or 2 :) "that isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals" Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews. They can press charges while Hamas continues to rape and murder and wait and then even with a conviction, the rape and murder continues or they can do what they are doing now and resolve the situation. Any long term solutions can come later. Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships?

bhouston 3y ago
> You never chose option 1 or 2 :) You provided a false dichotomy, I don't have to choose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma > Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. I support removing Hamas but not cutting off aid, electricity, fuel, food and not indiscriminate bombing. And I think pairing that with a robust drive to a 2-state solution is also key. You have to provide hope and show you are not just trying to take land or engage in ethnic cleansing, e.g: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-conce... > Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews. I would expect that some of both Hamas and Israeli leadership will be charged and also some will be found guilty of war crimes if ICC filed charges. ICC has been gun shy to get involved though, so it isn't clear if it will happen. > Any long term solutions can come later. Always! This is why the occupation has lasted so long. > Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships? Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defence. It is charged with genocide with is different and not what the US is doing in Yemen. Many leaders said things that sound like genocidal statements and it has cut off food, water, electricity and fuel. 80% of starving people in the world are in Gaza. Here is the UK pleading with Israel to turn the water back on and let in food: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-to-let-aid-through-and-save-lives-in-gaza-britain-has-a-plan-to-help-that-happen-article-by-the-foreign-secretary https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-t...
- wonderwonder 3y ago
  For you personally it is a false dichotomy, for Israel its a real choice they had to make. Hamas has proven that they seize the vast majority of aid sent to Gaza both during the current war and historically. That is why its leaders are billionaires. "Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defense" of course not, but that is what this war is, a war of self defense to ensure that what happened does not happen again. America is not striking the Houthis in self defense, Yemen is on the other side of the world from the US they are not a risk to America the nation at all. Hamas is a clear threat to Israeli citizens. Leaders can say whatever they want, they can only charge on actions. Indeed Hamas openly calls for the destruction of Israel and America. Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians, indeed far more than the US did in Iraq. I hear what you are saying and I think your heart is in the right place but from my perspective if someone kills your citizens / family and remains an active threat, it is the governments responsibility to hunt them to the end of the earth and neutralize that threat in the most expedient manner possible.