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Just so we are clear, lets say israel filed a case against Hamas and won. Then what? The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? Or nothing changes and Hamas

Just so we are clear, lets say israel filed a case against Hamas and won. Then what? The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing? Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas. Lets say you have a wife, and 5 kids. Terrorists break into your house and rape your wife and murder 2 of your kids. There are 2 options presented to you. 1. you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die. 2. a special team of negotiators and police spend 3 months slowly working with the community to try and get them to give up the terrorists. 80% of the terrorists are caught. 5 police officers die. The rest are free. In the mean time they kill your wife and cripple one of your remaining kids. Which one do you choose? All the anti Israel people want Israel to pick option 2, when Israel's responsibility has to be to protect its own. Also there really is no such thing as international law. There is only what America allows and does not allow. It may not be fair but thats reality. Those really are the facts on the ground.

bhouston 3y ago
> The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? That isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals. > Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing? With regards to the ICC, there would be international arrest warrants for Hamas leaders and there would be incredibly pressure on a lot of countries to arrest them if they were present in their countries or transiting through them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the... > Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas. You do realize that Netanyahu, and other radicals in the Israeli government, has actually long purposely boosted Hamas by allowing financial transfers and has purposely hurt the Palestinian moderates? Netanyahu viewed supporting Hamas as a way to prevent a 2 state solution: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolste... https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/ https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian... “The Palestinian Authority is a burden, and Hamas is an asset.” So yeah, there is a clear solution here towards a 2-state solution where both Israeli and Palestinians have freedom and safety and self-determination. Providing hope is the best way to stop the growth of radical organizations. > you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die. Even President Biden said that Israel's bombing was indiscriminate. Almost half of the bombs dropped where dumb bombs, that is not targeted at all: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessm...
- wonderwonder 3y ago
  You never chose option 1 or 2 :) "that isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals" Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews. They can press charges while Hamas continues to rape and murder and wait and then even with a conviction, the rape and murder continues or they can do what they are doing now and resolve the situation. Any long term solutions can come later. Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships?
  - bhouston 3y ago
    > You never chose option 1 or 2 :) You provided a false dichotomy, I don't have to choose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma > Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. I support removing Hamas but not cutting off aid, electricity, fuel, food and not indiscriminate bombing. And I think pairing that with a robust drive to a 2-state solution is also key. You have to provide hope and show you are not just trying to take land or engage in ethnic cleansing, e.g: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-conce... > Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews. I would expect that some of both Hamas and Israeli leadership will be charged and also some will be found guilty of war crimes if ICC filed charges. ICC has been gun shy to get involved though, so it isn't clear if it will happen. > Any long term solutions can come later. Always! This is why the occupation has lasted so long. > Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships? Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defence. It is charged with genocide with is different and not what the US is doing in Yemen. Many leaders said things that sound like genocidal statements and it has cut off food, water, electricity and fuel. 80% of starving people in the world are in Gaza. Here is the UK pleading with Israel to turn the water back on and let in food: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-to-let-aid-through-and-save-lives-in-gaza-britain-has-a-plan-to-help-that-happen-article-by-the-foreign-secretary https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-t...
johnnyworker 3y ago
> 1. you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die. They are bombing refugee camps. Bulldozers are tearing up streets, just to make Gaza unlivable. Soldiers singing genocidal chants. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s Making extremely cruel and deranged TikToks in destroyed homes. Politicians are talking about how there are no innocent civilians in Gaza. 80% of the people suffering catastrophic hunger in the world right now are in Gaza. I'd rather say you and anyone has two options here: a.) denounce the genocide and call for it to end and the people responsible to be prosecuted b.) support genocide in some form or other, beating around the bush in so many words, with all sorts of neat hypothetical faces to put on the despicable genocidal underbelly that is being rubbed in our faces. > All the anti Israel To criticize that is as much "Anti-Israel" as the White Rose was "Anti-German". Yeshayahu Leibowitz didn't love Israel less than the people who saw no problem. As Gideon Levy said, the friend of an alcoholic is not he who goes to the corner store to buy them alcohol, it's the one who tells them they have to stop.
- wonderwonder 3y ago
  "They are bombing refugee camps" Are there terrorists in these camps? Are there tunnels under these camps? "Making extremely cruel and deranged TikToks in destroyed homes" This is war... Soldiers have dehumanized their enemies since the beginning of time. Hamas actually has women and children they are holding hostage. What is Israel's other option? Let Hamas go to do it again? Hamas is very open even during this war in stating their goal is to destroy Israel and the US and wanting to repeat their killing of civilians. So again, serious question. What is Israel's alternative to the invasion? How do they immediately stop Hamas and prevent them from attacking Israel again with out doing what they are doing now? I think you will find, if you are serious that your response is "I don't know" Both of your options are invalid as choosing either does not resolve Israel's current situation which is that they have an openly genocidal terrorist army on their border and they can either eradicate it or allow it to continue to rape, murder and torture. Lets not forget that hamas still has a hundred civilians they have kidnapped, many of them women that they are refusing to return even though they had agreed to; likely because of what has been done to them in captivity. This is a fight for survival for both sides, its ugly but it has happened over and over through history. It will happen many more times. Its just humanity.

bhouston 3y ago

> The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? That isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals. > Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing? With regards to the ICC, there would be international arrest warrants for Hamas leaders and there would be incredibly pressure on a lot of countries to arrest them if they were present in their countries or transiting through them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the... > Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas. You do realize that Netanyahu, and other radicals in the Israeli government, has actually long purposely boosted Hamas by allowing financial transfers and has purposely hurt the Palestinian moderates? Netanyahu viewed supporting Hamas as a way to prevent a 2 state solution: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolste... https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/ https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian... “The Palestinian Authority is a burden, and Hamas is an asset.” So yeah, there is a clear solution here towards a 2-state solution where both Israeli and Palestinians have freedom and safety and self-determination. Providing hope is the best way to stop the growth of radical organizations. > you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die. Even President Biden said that Israel's bombing was indiscriminate. Almost half of the bombs dropped where dumb bombs, that is not targeted at all: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessm...

wonderwonder 3y ago
You never chose option 1 or 2 :) "that isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals" Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews. They can press charges while Hamas continues to rape and murder and wait and then even with a conviction, the rape and murder continues or they can do what they are doing now and resolve the situation. Any long term solutions can come later. Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships?
- bhouston 3y ago
  > You never chose option 1 or 2 :) You provided a false dichotomy, I don't have to choose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma > Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. I support removing Hamas but not cutting off aid, electricity, fuel, food and not indiscriminate bombing. And I think pairing that with a robust drive to a 2-state solution is also key. You have to provide hope and show you are not just trying to take land or engage in ethnic cleansing, e.g: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-conce... > Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews. I would expect that some of both Hamas and Israeli leadership will be charged and also some will be found guilty of war crimes if ICC filed charges. ICC has been gun shy to get involved though, so it isn't clear if it will happen. > Any long term solutions can come later. Always! This is why the occupation has lasted so long. > Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships? Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defence. It is charged with genocide with is different and not what the US is doing in Yemen. Many leaders said things that sound like genocidal statements and it has cut off food, water, electricity and fuel. 80% of starving people in the world are in Gaza. Here is the UK pleading with Israel to turn the water back on and let in food: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-to-let-aid-through-and-save-lives-in-gaza-britain-has-a-plan-to-help-that-happen-article-by-the-foreign-secretary https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-t...

johnnyworker 3y ago

> 1. you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die. They are bombing refugee camps. Bulldozers are tearing up streets, just to make Gaza unlivable. Soldiers singing genocidal chants. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s Making extremely cruel and deranged TikToks in destroyed homes. Politicians are talking about how there are no innocent civilians in Gaza. 80% of the people suffering catastrophic hunger in the world right now are in Gaza. I'd rather say you and anyone has two options here: a.) denounce the genocide and call for it to end and the people responsible to be prosecuted b.) support genocide in some form or other, beating around the bush in so many words, with all sorts of neat hypothetical faces to put on the despicable genocidal underbelly that is being rubbed in our faces. > All the anti Israel To criticize that is as much "Anti-Israel" as the White Rose was "Anti-German". Yeshayahu Leibowitz didn't love Israel less than the people who saw no problem. As Gideon Levy said, the friend of an alcoholic is not he who goes to the corner store to buy them alcohol, it's the one who tells them they have to stop.

wonderwonder 3y ago
"They are bombing refugee camps" Are there terrorists in these camps? Are there tunnels under these camps? "Making extremely cruel and deranged TikToks in destroyed homes" This is war... Soldiers have dehumanized their enemies since the beginning of time. Hamas actually has women and children they are holding hostage. What is Israel's other option? Let Hamas go to do it again? Hamas is very open even during this war in stating their goal is to destroy Israel and the US and wanting to repeat their killing of civilians. So again, serious question. What is Israel's alternative to the invasion? How do they immediately stop Hamas and prevent them from attacking Israel again with out doing what they are doing now? I think you will find, if you are serious that your response is "I don't know" Both of your options are invalid as choosing either does not resolve Israel's current situation which is that they have an openly genocidal terrorist army on their border and they can either eradicate it or allow it to continue to rape, murder and torture. Lets not forget that hamas still has a hundred civilians they have kidnapped, many of them women that they are refusing to return even though they had agreed to; likely because of what has been done to them in captivity. This is a fight for survival for both sides, its ugly but it has happened over and over through history. It will happen many more times. Its just humanity.