5 ms·

The Cult of Mac

34 points by kmeisthax 3y ago

bediger4000 3y ago
Great phrasing, and in a pro-free-market rant, too: members of an oppressed religious minority whose identity is coterminal with the interests of Apple's shareholders.
deadlinermusic 3y ago
I like Coke, You like Pepsi. Aren't we all part of the cults that suit us?
- democracy 3y ago
  Depends on if you think Pepsi drinkers are somewhat less intelligent and need a bit of lecturing
  - deadlinermusic 3y ago
    Well, my point is that nobody should drink that sugary mess that isn't good for you. But we do.
    - esafak 3y ago
      I assume you know that Steve Jobs used this line to lure Pepsi's CEO, John Sculley, to lead Apple :)
- skeaker 3y ago
  That is in part the point of the article, I think. Ultimately this comes down to personal preference. Apple, Microsoft, Linux, everything has ups and downs and it shouldn't be more than personal preference. What becomes an issue is when fans of one group unconditionally defend or deny the flaws of their choice to the point that it's to their own detriment and enables their preferred company to be extremely predatory to their users. That is a phenomenon interesting enough to be worth looking into even if you can sidestep it by just not using Apple, because at the end of the day yes, it is as simple as just choosing your preference.
barnabee 3y ago
I dunno, I bought a MacBook Pro because: - I cannot stay happy with a WM/DE config on Linux. Most of then can’t even render a desktop at a reasonable size (or even consistent across all apps) - I like the hardware and I’m not particularly price sensitive Now I can add the performance for local AI to the reasons to do so again. I almost entirely use open source software though, and I don’t think I use anything Mac specific except Alfred. As far as I can tell, there is no viable alternative for people who are simultaneously very demanding of their tools and unwilling to spend half their life fiddling with configs.
- vosper 3y ago
  I bought another Macbook Pro because I've used Windows, Mac, and Linux and I like Mac the most. I have an iPhone and I like that, too. I had an Android before. Like you I'm not particularly price sensitive. These are just my preferences, I don't think it makes me a cultist.
  - barnabee 3y ago
    Agree. I also use an iPhone. I have a Pixel running Graphene (I refuse to do Googled Android, or Chrome) and I want to like it, I really do, but I always go back to the iPhone. I don’t feel like a cult member (that’s what they all say…). I’ve realised that while I consider my laptop a computer, to which I need full access and control, the phone for me is basically an appliance. It’s like my washing machine but for messaging, web browsing, and ordering shit. Conceptually I want it to be unencumbered and open source, but in reality I try not to spend all day staring at it and when I do have to I just want it to work. (I get it, that’s how they get you! I’ll donate money to fixing that, but I don't have the time, patience, or energy to use the alternatives in their current state.)
- somewhereoutth 3y ago
  Thinkpad X1 Gen 11 + Linux Mint = everything works. (Well, I had to update the kernel for the wifi) And it has a hash key!!
  - 3y ago
JohnClark1337 3y ago
[dead]
filoleg 3y ago
> Apple's most valuable intangible asset isn't its patents or copyrights – it's an army of people who believe that using products from a $2.89 trillion multinational makes them members of an oppressed religious minority whose identity is coterminal with the interests of Apple's shareholders. Maybe this was true in the era of “mac hipsters” somewhere between late 00s and early ‘10s, but I have zero idea what the article author is on about if they are talking about the current state of things. Heavy majority of people around me use macs, and I have never noticed that vibe. Even online, it isn’t really a thing anymore for almost anyone. For most, macs are just their workhorse machines. People don’t rave about macos or anything like that, people just use it. Some number of them also have gaming PCs too, so it isn’t really even a topic of discussion. Ffs, even my mother these days uses a mac (m1 air), and she is not even really tech literate. I remember there were those passionate “PC vs Mac” flamewars back then, but these days it feels like most just found what works for them, and anything else or what everyone else is using is not something they care about at all. The only times i even hear people having some strong personal opinions about macs these days, they tend to come from people who don’t actually use them.
- pathartl 3y ago
  There's less of that in the Mac space I would agree, but in the mobile space there's a large percentage of iOS users that turn their nose up at Android users.
  - kjkjadksj 3y ago
    Teenagers being teenagers. Apple is Abercrombie.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- dromtrund 3y ago
  I've found some still have a weird tendency to defend bad UX on apple products, even if it's obviously bothering them. I've heard similar sentiments as in the article too, especially about the app store, but it's not something people go around announcing to everyone anymore, like they used to. If you buy a product that's more expensive, you'd be a fool if it's not superior to other products, so it's hard not to get personally invested in the idea that they are.
bluepizza 3y ago
Article skips one of the major reasons why Apple is so popular: actual physical Apple stores. Any maintenance is dealt with at the store, no stress, no need to call customer support, or to find an authorized shop. I love my Lenovo laptop with Linux, but their customer experience is dreadful both to purchase equipment (that website! why?) and to get any sort of maintenance. I wouldn't buy a Mac, but dismissing Apple's dominance as human folly is a bad take.
- skeaker 3y ago
  Of course it skips that! There are obviously plenty of good things Apple does with its products, and it is not on the article to qualify each of them before moving on to a criticism. The "human folly" is the susceptibility to advertising, which absolutely does work and was 100% leveraged heavily by Apple to great success. Pointing that out and the negative consequences of it as the article does is not "dismissing" anything else about Apple.
karmakaze 3y ago
> The Cult of Mac: You cannot reason a person out of a position they did not reason themself into in the first place. This explains so much of how I couldn't understand the willful ignorance of folks I believe are otherwise intelligent.
lapcat 3y ago
As an Apple user and developer, I don't disagree with the gist of the article, but I do have two criticisms: 1) "But that's not the only bad outcome. Some lucky service providers are able to pay the Apple Tax by gouging Apple's customers, raising prices to pay the danegeld. That's the second effect." This is a common but unfortunately gross misunderstanding. The App Store actually devalued software, creating a race to the bottom, and the main reason is that the App Store directly cloned the iTunes Music Store, which itself devalued albums and was designed to sell 99 cent singles. It's a terrible model for selling software. I've written about it before here: "App Store is neither console nor retail but jukebox" https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/jukebox.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/jukebox.html As an indie developer, my biggest problem isn't Apple's cut (which for me is only 15% now); rather it's the expectation of cheap software that the App Store has created. I would be happy to pay 30% or even more if I could charge pre-2008 prices, and if Apple would actually do my marketing for me, as some people ignorantly claim. You can't "make it up in volume". Musicians couldn't make it up in volume either. There are a billion possible customers, but turning possible customers into actual customers is actually very hard, and also expensive. Read Apple's 2019 document "Addressing Spotify’s claims": > A full 84 percent of the apps in the App Store pay nothing to Apple when you download or use the app. That’s not discrimination, as Spotify claims; it’s by design As a software developer, that statement makes me wince. It's an open admission that Apple intentionally devalued software and created the expectation among users that they shouldn't have to pay for it. 2) The title of the article is unfair. Mac users are not the problem, because the Mac is more open than the iPhone — for example, you can install software from outside the App Store — and there are 10x as many iPhone users as Mac users.
- skeaker 3y ago
  Agreed on 2, and I would even go further: While I think there is definitely something odd to the behavior on display here, dramatizing that as a cult is perhaps too far (though I don't know for sure how I would put it myself). Good thoughts on 1. It does make you wonder how different things would be if apps were priced more similarly to desktop software from the beginning (maybe smartphones would never have caught on?). We're in so deep with 99 cent apps that it's easy to overlook that or take it as a given even though it didn't have to be this way.
gigel82 3y ago
I'm just glad more people are beginning to see through the veil of the "privacy focused" Apple's bullshit and peek at the monopolistic data-slurping monster building its ad empire behind. It used to be not long ago you'd get downvoted into oblivion (on HN and elsewhere) for just daring to hint that Apple might not be the good guys their PR department is working hard to portray them as.
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
[dupe] Cory's weird permalink structure again.. Some more discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38971775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38971775
- lapcat 3y ago
  That other submission is flagged.
- musicale 3y ago
  Oh I just realized this was Cory Doctorow, who I generally like. I suppose the rant is on brand, though I think he gives too much credit to Tim Apple's[1] alleged mind control powers. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/7/18254958/tim-cook-apple-trump-username-changed-twitter-name-potus-president https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/7/18254958/tim-cook-apple-tr...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
musicale 3y ago
Already taken: https://www.cultofmac.com https://www.cultofmac.com

34 points by kmeisthax 3y ago

Great phrasing, and in a pro-free-market rant, too: members of an oppressed religious minority whose identity is coterminal with the interests of Apple's shareholders.

deadlinermusic 3y ago

I like Coke, You like Pepsi. Aren't we all part of the cults that suit us?

democracy 3y ago
Depends on if you think Pepsi drinkers are somewhat less intelligent and need a bit of lecturing
- deadlinermusic 3y ago
  Well, my point is that nobody should drink that sugary mess that isn't good for you. But we do.
  - esafak 3y ago
    I assume you know that Steve Jobs used this line to lure Pepsi's CEO, John Sculley, to lead Apple :)
skeaker 3y ago
That is in part the point of the article, I think. Ultimately this comes down to personal preference. Apple, Microsoft, Linux, everything has ups and downs and it shouldn't be more than personal preference. What becomes an issue is when fans of one group unconditionally defend or deny the flaws of their choice to the point that it's to their own detriment and enables their preferred company to be extremely predatory to their users. That is a phenomenon interesting enough to be worth looking into even if you can sidestep it by just not using Apple, because at the end of the day yes, it is as simple as just choosing your preference.

barnabee 3y ago

I dunno, I bought a MacBook Pro because: - I cannot stay happy with a WM/DE config on Linux. Most of then can’t even render a desktop at a reasonable size (or even consistent across all apps) - I like the hardware and I’m not particularly price sensitive Now I can add the performance for local AI to the reasons to do so again. I almost entirely use open source software though, and I don’t think I use anything Mac specific except Alfred. As far as I can tell, there is no viable alternative for people who are simultaneously very demanding of their tools and unwilling to spend half their life fiddling with configs.

vosper 3y ago
I bought another Macbook Pro because I've used Windows, Mac, and Linux and I like Mac the most. I have an iPhone and I like that, too. I had an Android before. Like you I'm not particularly price sensitive. These are just my preferences, I don't think it makes me a cultist.
- barnabee 3y ago
  Agree. I also use an iPhone. I have a Pixel running Graphene (I refuse to do Googled Android, or Chrome) and I want to like it, I really do, but I always go back to the iPhone. I don’t feel like a cult member (that’s what they all say…). I’ve realised that while I consider my laptop a computer, to which I need full access and control, the phone for me is basically an appliance. It’s like my washing machine but for messaging, web browsing, and ordering shit. Conceptually I want it to be unencumbered and open source, but in reality I try not to spend all day staring at it and when I do have to I just want it to work. (I get it, that’s how they get you! I’ll donate money to fixing that, but I don't have the time, patience, or energy to use the alternatives in their current state.)
somewhereoutth 3y ago
Thinkpad X1 Gen 11 + Linux Mint = everything works. (Well, I had to update the kernel for the wifi) And it has a hash key!!
- 3y ago

JohnClark1337 3y ago

[dead]

filoleg 3y ago

> Apple's most valuable intangible asset isn't its patents or copyrights – it's an army of people who believe that using products from a $2.89 trillion multinational makes them members of an oppressed religious minority whose identity is coterminal with the interests of Apple's shareholders. Maybe this was true in the era of “mac hipsters” somewhere between late 00s and early ‘10s, but I have zero idea what the article author is on about if they are talking about the current state of things. Heavy majority of people around me use macs, and I have never noticed that vibe. Even online, it isn’t really a thing anymore for almost anyone. For most, macs are just their workhorse machines. People don’t rave about macos or anything like that, people just use it. Some number of them also have gaming PCs too, so it isn’t really even a topic of discussion. Ffs, even my mother these days uses a mac (m1 air), and she is not even really tech literate. I remember there were those passionate “PC vs Mac” flamewars back then, but these days it feels like most just found what works for them, and anything else or what everyone else is using is not something they care about at all. The only times i even hear people having some strong personal opinions about macs these days, they tend to come from people who don’t actually use them.

pathartl 3y ago
There's less of that in the Mac space I would agree, but in the mobile space there's a large percentage of iOS users that turn their nose up at Android users.
- kjkjadksj 3y ago
  Teenagers being teenagers. Apple is Abercrombie.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
dromtrund 3y ago
I've found some still have a weird tendency to defend bad UX on apple products, even if it's obviously bothering them. I've heard similar sentiments as in the article too, especially about the app store, but it's not something people go around announcing to everyone anymore, like they used to. If you buy a product that's more expensive, you'd be a fool if it's not superior to other products, so it's hard not to get personally invested in the idea that they are.

bluepizza 3y ago

Article skips one of the major reasons why Apple is so popular: actual physical Apple stores. Any maintenance is dealt with at the store, no stress, no need to call customer support, or to find an authorized shop. I love my Lenovo laptop with Linux, but their customer experience is dreadful both to purchase equipment (that website! why?) and to get any sort of maintenance. I wouldn't buy a Mac, but dismissing Apple's dominance as human folly is a bad take.

skeaker 3y ago
Of course it skips that! There are obviously plenty of good things Apple does with its products, and it is not on the article to qualify each of them before moving on to a criticism. The "human folly" is the susceptibility to advertising, which absolutely does work and was 100% leveraged heavily by Apple to great success. Pointing that out and the negative consequences of it as the article does is not "dismissing" anything else about Apple.

karmakaze 3y ago

> The Cult of Mac: You cannot reason a person out of a position they did not reason themself into in the first place. This explains so much of how I couldn't understand the willful ignorance of folks I believe are otherwise intelligent.

lapcat 3y ago

As an Apple user and developer, I don't disagree with the gist of the article, but I do have two criticisms: 1) "But that's not the only bad outcome. Some lucky service providers are able to pay the Apple Tax by gouging Apple's customers, raising prices to pay the danegeld. That's the second effect." This is a common but unfortunately gross misunderstanding. The App Store actually devalued software, creating a race to the bottom, and the main reason is that the App Store directly cloned the iTunes Music Store, which itself devalued albums and was designed to sell 99 cent singles. It's a terrible model for selling software. I've written about it before here: "App Store is neither console nor retail but jukebox" https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/jukebox.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/jukebox.html As an indie developer, my biggest problem isn't Apple's cut (which for me is only 15% now); rather it's the expectation of cheap software that the App Store has created. I would be happy to pay 30% or even more if I could charge pre-2008 prices, and if Apple would actually do my marketing for me, as some people ignorantly claim. You can't "make it up in volume". Musicians couldn't make it up in volume either. There are a billion possible customers, but turning possible customers into actual customers is actually very hard, and also expensive. Read Apple's 2019 document "Addressing Spotify’s claims": > A full 84 percent of the apps in the App Store pay nothing to Apple when you download or use the app. That’s not discrimination, as Spotify claims; it’s by design As a software developer, that statement makes me wince. It's an open admission that Apple intentionally devalued software and created the expectation among users that they shouldn't have to pay for it. 2) The title of the article is unfair. Mac users are not the problem, because the Mac is more open than the iPhone — for example, you can install software from outside the App Store — and there are 10x as many iPhone users as Mac users.

skeaker 3y ago
Agreed on 2, and I would even go further: While I think there is definitely something odd to the behavior on display here, dramatizing that as a cult is perhaps too far (though I don't know for sure how I would put it myself). Good thoughts on 1. It does make you wonder how different things would be if apps were priced more similarly to desktop software from the beginning (maybe smartphones would never have caught on?). We're in so deep with 99 cent apps that it's easy to overlook that or take it as a given even though it didn't have to be this way.

gigel82 3y ago

I'm just glad more people are beginning to see through the veil of the "privacy focused" Apple's bullshit and peek at the monopolistic data-slurping monster building its ad empire behind. It used to be not long ago you'd get downvoted into oblivion (on HN and elsewhere) for just daring to hint that Apple might not be the good guys their PR department is working hard to portray them as.

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

[dupe] Cory's weird permalink structure again.. Some more discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38971775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38971775

lapcat 3y ago
That other submission is flagged.
musicale 3y ago
Oh I just realized this was Cory Doctorow, who I generally like. I suppose the rant is on brand, though I think he gives too much credit to Tim Apple's[1] alleged mind control powers. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/7/18254958/tim-cook-apple-trump-username-changed-twitter-name-potus-president https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/7/18254958/tim-cook-apple-tr...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

musicale 3y ago

Already taken: https://www.cultofmac.com https://www.cultofmac.com