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Do you have sources as to why they are lies? I'm not doubting you, but simply saying they're lies is just as disingenuous as the people making the statements i

Do you have sources as to why they are lies? I'm not doubting you, but simply saying they're lies is just as disingenuous as the people making the statements in the first place

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
This is an HN comment thread, not a peer-reviewed paper on "lies convenient to the fossil fuel industries". However, for your convenience, I used google to search for "are solar panels net energy positive" and found this as the 2nd link: https://www.solarmelon.com/faqs/solar-panels-use-energy-manufacture-actually-produce/ https://www.solarmelon.com/faqs/solar-panels-use-energy-manu... This contains a link to at least one peer-reviewed paper: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es3038824 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es3038824 I can almost guarantee that a similar process will elicit similar answers for every other point in the GP's list.
- afsag 3y ago
  [flagged]
- fsflover 3y ago
  This is an HN comment thread, hence we expect a higher quality of comments than elsewhere on the Internet. Thanks for the links.
  - jf22 3y ago
    I think there is more of an expectation here to Google simple things for yourself rather than condescendingly ask for a source that is a few keystrokes away.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      Everyone can search things on the Internet. However when I state something on HN, I usually try to add some good links, which are not top Google results. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38725734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38725734.
  - tdb7893 3y ago
    The opinion that HN has particularly high quality comments is always surprising to me. Outside of the times where the person commenting is the actual creator of whatever the post is about I've found comments here to be a dumpster fire to the point where I often have fun looking at them specifically because they are often so wild and I love a good mess. I assume people here will disagree but it's that exact stark difference in perspective that's so interesting to me
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - fsflover 3y ago
      I definitely noticed that the quality of the comments here is often better than simply stating some opinion. The latter is typical for social media echo chambers but not here.
    - PawgerZ 3y ago
      I agree with everything you said, yet I still believe HN comments are regularly the most high quality on the internet. Do you know anywhere that has better comments than HN?
  - naremu 3y ago
    Well quite frankly, saying "the claim that these are lies are just as disingenuous as the claims themselves" is a pretty low quality, classic stick-in-the-spokes "debate" tactic that essentially hand waves the ball back in the other person's court with minimal effort or contribution or real debate and puts maximum onus on someone else in public in the "flow" of discourse. This is "great" for televised debates but this is kind of passive aggressive for the tone people prefer here. We're talking to people here. More directly than a formal debate. Someone participating earnestly knows they are capable of either politely expressing interest and asking for sources, or as another mentioned: typing and clicking all by themselves.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      > saying "the claim that these are lies are just as disingenuous as the claims themselves" I didn't say that, but I do think that providing links is helpful.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        quote: simply saying they're lies is just as disingenuous as the people making the statements in the first place paraphrase: the claim that these are lies are just as disingenuous as the claims themselves claim: I didn't say that I confess that I can't quite see the difference.
        fsflover 3y ago
        I'm not @jairuhme.
        PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        Ah, entirely fair point! :) Sorry about that.
- jiggawatts 3y ago
  If solar panels were a net energy negative, they couldn't be made and operated for a profit[1]. It's such an obvious lie, it's just painful. Very early solar cells, the type used to power calculators and the like, may have been so inefficient that their lifetime power generation didn't offset the energy cost of their production. That doesn't matter because the scale is tiny, and the portability and the elimination of batteries is the point, not net energy return. Someone probably got it in their mind that "solar can't work" back in the 1960s or 70s based on this, and refused to budge half a century later when solar is the cheapest form of grid-scale energy. [1] This is actually a great way to estimate the total energy that went into a product. It must be less than the wholesale price (or cost-of-manufacture), otherwise at least one profit-motived organisation must be selling the product, its raw materials, or the energy inputs below cost and losing money on purpose. Only in rare cases like gov subsidies, state-owned corporations, etc... is this rule violated.
  - valval 3y ago
    The cases you describe in your last paragraph are not rare by any means — they’re everywhere, since all of the western world has seen a move towards bigger governments and socialism in the last decades.
standeven 3y ago
I can provide many sources for each point, let me know if there's a specific one that you find questionable.

Do you have sources as to why they are lies? I'm not doubting you, but simply saying they're lies is just as disingenuous as the people making the statements in the first place

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

This is an HN comment thread, not a peer-reviewed paper on "lies convenient to the fossil fuel industries". However, for your convenience, I used google to search for "are solar panels net energy positive" and found this as the 2nd link: https://www.solarmelon.com/faqs/solar-panels-use-energy-manufacture-actually-produce/ https://www.solarmelon.com/faqs/solar-panels-use-energy-manu... This contains a link to at least one peer-reviewed paper: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es3038824 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es3038824 I can almost guarantee that a similar process will elicit similar answers for every other point in the GP's list.

afsag 3y ago
[flagged]
fsflover 3y ago
This is an HN comment thread, hence we expect a higher quality of comments than elsewhere on the Internet. Thanks for the links.
- jf22 3y ago
  I think there is more of an expectation here to Google simple things for yourself rather than condescendingly ask for a source that is a few keystrokes away.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    Everyone can search things on the Internet. However when I state something on HN, I usually try to add some good links, which are not top Google results. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38725734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38725734.
- tdb7893 3y ago
  The opinion that HN has particularly high quality comments is always surprising to me. Outside of the times where the person commenting is the actual creator of whatever the post is about I've found comments here to be a dumpster fire to the point where I often have fun looking at them specifically because they are often so wild and I love a good mess. I assume people here will disagree but it's that exact stark difference in perspective that's so interesting to me
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - fsflover 3y ago
    I definitely noticed that the quality of the comments here is often better than simply stating some opinion. The latter is typical for social media echo chambers but not here.
  - PawgerZ 3y ago
    I agree with everything you said, yet I still believe HN comments are regularly the most high quality on the internet. Do you know anywhere that has better comments than HN?
- naremu 3y ago
  Well quite frankly, saying "the claim that these are lies are just as disingenuous as the claims themselves" is a pretty low quality, classic stick-in-the-spokes "debate" tactic that essentially hand waves the ball back in the other person's court with minimal effort or contribution or real debate and puts maximum onus on someone else in public in the "flow" of discourse. This is "great" for televised debates but this is kind of passive aggressive for the tone people prefer here. We're talking to people here. More directly than a formal debate. Someone participating earnestly knows they are capable of either politely expressing interest and asking for sources, or as another mentioned: typing and clicking all by themselves.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    > saying "the claim that these are lies are just as disingenuous as the claims themselves" I didn't say that, but I do think that providing links is helpful.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      quote: simply saying they're lies is just as disingenuous as the people making the statements in the first place paraphrase: the claim that these are lies are just as disingenuous as the claims themselves claim: I didn't say that I confess that I can't quite see the difference.
      - fsflover 3y ago
        I'm not @jairuhme.
        PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        Ah, entirely fair point! :) Sorry about that.
jiggawatts 3y ago
If solar panels were a net energy negative, they couldn't be made and operated for a profit[1]. It's such an obvious lie, it's just painful. Very early solar cells, the type used to power calculators and the like, may have been so inefficient that their lifetime power generation didn't offset the energy cost of their production. That doesn't matter because the scale is tiny, and the portability and the elimination of batteries is the point, not net energy return. Someone probably got it in their mind that "solar can't work" back in the 1960s or 70s based on this, and refused to budge half a century later when solar is the cheapest form of grid-scale energy. [1] This is actually a great way to estimate the total energy that went into a product. It must be less than the wholesale price (or cost-of-manufacture), otherwise at least one profit-motived organisation must be selling the product, its raw materials, or the energy inputs below cost and losing money on purpose. Only in rare cases like gov subsidies, state-owned corporations, etc... is this rule violated.
- valval 3y ago
  The cases you describe in your last paragraph are not rare by any means — they’re everywhere, since all of the western world has seen a move towards bigger governments and socialism in the last decades.

standeven 3y ago

I can provide many sources for each point, let me know if there's a specific one that you find questionable.