4 ms·

Felis Catus doesn't have a native range in any meaningful manner, IMO. They are a global species like us, because of us. You can't put that cat back in the ba

Felis Catus doesn't have a native range in any meaningful manner, IMO. They are a global species like us, because of us. You can't put that cat back in the bag no matter the .22 cartridges you expend.

throwaway03675 3y ago
That shouldn't stop us from trying to limit their growth. "The cat is out of the bag" so to speak, but a lot of the growth comes from runaway cats, or cats that have been abandoned by their owners (happens more often than you think) We could start by requiring all domestic cats to be sterilized, so that they don't breed. Then the cat population would be limited to certified breeders and wild cats. We could also have the same restrictions on cats as dogs. They should not be allowed to be outside unless they are in leash or in a controlled environment (the latter is hard, as cats can climb over standard fences). I guess fully enclosed "cat parks" would be an option. You may have a harder time training a cat to wear a leash compared to a dog, but it's possible. It's strange to me that we think cats need to be outside to satisfy their predator instincts, as if dogs and other animals like to be inside all day while we are at work. If someone doesn't like that thought, they have the option of not owning a cat.
- pvorb 3y ago
  That's my take. I like animals, so I decided to not own any of them. I wonder how people manage to love their animals and remove them from their natural environment. I know that we've come a long way and pets have had humans around them for ages, but to me it still feels like we're doing them harm. I know that nature is even harder, but it's not like pets decided to live that way. It's also hard to understand why people love one species, but also breed others on an industrial level, so they can eat them more easily. Probably going to get a few downvotes for this.
  - bruce511 3y ago
    No down-votes from me, but as an annecdote I can offer this. We have feral cats in our neighborhood. One of them moved into our house and had a litter in the study. (We kept one, and found homes for the other 3). One of her daughters from an earlier litter moved in and fed the same. All have been sterilised now obviously, but we stoll get regular visits from a local Tom, likely a brother to the first one. The all get along fine, and he's used to us but basically comes in for food or shelter and doesn't socialise with us like the others do. I don't think we "own" them. They all come and go as they please. But I'd say 3 of them definitely live here, and tolerate us. Interestingly none of them seem interested in birds. The occasional mole, otherwise the occasional lizard - mostly for sport. I'm not negating your ethics at all, but it seems some cats like being part of the family, and others are aloof. They all have distinct personalities.
  - jcrites 3y ago
    For domesticated cats and dogs, being inside the home is their natural environment (or can be, to varying degrees). I've owned cats and dogs. I can let them outside and leave the door open, and they may go outside to explore or play briefly, but they'll want to come inside shortly afterward. Especially my dog - he doesn't even want to be outside by himself, except to relieve himself. He has herding instincts and is uncomfortable being alone outdoors for more than a short time. He would much rather be around people, but if he had to be by himself, then he'd rather be indoors. (Observation: if I were to leave the house, and left the back door open, he'd still spend most of the day inside rather than in the yard.) My cat acts downright frightened being outside. It's not really possible to discuss what is "natural" here, and I'd recommend being cautious about the naturalistic fallacy [1]: the idea that because something is 'natural' it must be better. It is 'natural' for humans to die of all kinds of diseases, yet we do not wish to, and so we treat ourselves with antibiotics and other medicines. It is 'natural' for children and women to die in childbirth, but we take substantial steps to prevent that, and so on. In the case of domesticated animals, it's hard to reason about what "natural" even is. The animals have adapted to living with humans; they want to be around humans. They aren't feral, and wouldn't want to live by themselves in the wilderness any more than a human would. They have a choice every time I open the door. (And yes, if they ran away, I would feel obligated to find them, but that's because I'm responsible for their health and safety, not because they are my prisoners. The point is that they don't even come close to making the choice to do that. It is far more likely that they would simply get lost outside than actually intentionally run away. This has happened once before to my dog, and his emotional reaction upon me finding him demonstrated compellingly that he felt lost and was happy to be found and reunited.) I might feel conflicted if I ever had a pet that behaved like it wanted to escape from me, but that's never been the case. Even pets that do enjoy to spend time outdoors alone - and I'm happy for them to do that - always want to return to the safety of the home after a time. I would not enjoy having a pet if I thought at all that it felt like a prisoner. Lastly, I would remark on the fact that these animals were raised from infancy by humans and around humans. They are socialized to be part of the family, just like people are. While it is true that they would have different personalities if they were raised in the wilderness, the same would also be true of a human child. If a human child were abandoned alone in the wilderness and somehow survived, then this human would undoubtedly have great difficulty socializing as an adult, and fitting into a family - yet we would not say that this wild person is somehow better or more natural. We would say that their upbringing was cruel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy
- wingworks 3y ago
  I agree with that. Though we'd need some cost effective way to monitor on leash etc rules are followed by the owners. Around here we have native reserves to try bring back native birds, but vast majority of dog owners ignore the existing leash or no dog rules. Most summers the reserves turn into more of a free dog toilet, and with the vast numbers of dogs going through, it ends up smelling quite bad to.
- nullstyle 3y ago
  "trying to limit their growth" is IMO approaching the whole situation incorrectly. Not saying I have answers, but IMO it's a narrow perspective that leads to things like the YouTube search results for "Australian cat hunter" or the feral hog tourist hunting shenanigans that go down in Texas. That shit should be condemned. As something of a response to your proposed solutions, I'm a proponent of TNR and adoption, and teaching people to be better animal caretakers. You make some assumptions about "us" and "we" that doesn't line up with my personal take, so I won't say more.
arcticbull 3y ago
I dunno, Alberta has no rats. It's doable if you're willing.
mantas 3y ago
Putting a tiny bell on cats is usually more than enough. At least it gives birds a fair chance.

throwaway03675 3y ago

That shouldn't stop us from trying to limit their growth. "The cat is out of the bag" so to speak, but a lot of the growth comes from runaway cats, or cats that have been abandoned by their owners (happens more often than you think) We could start by requiring all domestic cats to be sterilized, so that they don't breed. Then the cat population would be limited to certified breeders and wild cats. We could also have the same restrictions on cats as dogs. They should not be allowed to be outside unless they are in leash or in a controlled environment (the latter is hard, as cats can climb over standard fences). I guess fully enclosed "cat parks" would be an option. You may have a harder time training a cat to wear a leash compared to a dog, but it's possible. It's strange to me that we think cats need to be outside to satisfy their predator instincts, as if dogs and other animals like to be inside all day while we are at work. If someone doesn't like that thought, they have the option of not owning a cat.

pvorb 3y ago
That's my take. I like animals, so I decided to not own any of them. I wonder how people manage to love their animals and remove them from their natural environment. I know that we've come a long way and pets have had humans around them for ages, but to me it still feels like we're doing them harm. I know that nature is even harder, but it's not like pets decided to live that way. It's also hard to understand why people love one species, but also breed others on an industrial level, so they can eat them more easily. Probably going to get a few downvotes for this.
- bruce511 3y ago
  No down-votes from me, but as an annecdote I can offer this. We have feral cats in our neighborhood. One of them moved into our house and had a litter in the study. (We kept one, and found homes for the other 3). One of her daughters from an earlier litter moved in and fed the same. All have been sterilised now obviously, but we stoll get regular visits from a local Tom, likely a brother to the first one. The all get along fine, and he's used to us but basically comes in for food or shelter and doesn't socialise with us like the others do. I don't think we "own" them. They all come and go as they please. But I'd say 3 of them definitely live here, and tolerate us. Interestingly none of them seem interested in birds. The occasional mole, otherwise the occasional lizard - mostly for sport. I'm not negating your ethics at all, but it seems some cats like being part of the family, and others are aloof. They all have distinct personalities.
- jcrites 3y ago
  For domesticated cats and dogs, being inside the home is their natural environment (or can be, to varying degrees). I've owned cats and dogs. I can let them outside and leave the door open, and they may go outside to explore or play briefly, but they'll want to come inside shortly afterward. Especially my dog - he doesn't even want to be outside by himself, except to relieve himself. He has herding instincts and is uncomfortable being alone outdoors for more than a short time. He would much rather be around people, but if he had to be by himself, then he'd rather be indoors. (Observation: if I were to leave the house, and left the back door open, he'd still spend most of the day inside rather than in the yard.) My cat acts downright frightened being outside. It's not really possible to discuss what is "natural" here, and I'd recommend being cautious about the naturalistic fallacy [1]: the idea that because something is 'natural' it must be better. It is 'natural' for humans to die of all kinds of diseases, yet we do not wish to, and so we treat ourselves with antibiotics and other medicines. It is 'natural' for children and women to die in childbirth, but we take substantial steps to prevent that, and so on. In the case of domesticated animals, it's hard to reason about what "natural" even is. The animals have adapted to living with humans; they want to be around humans. They aren't feral, and wouldn't want to live by themselves in the wilderness any more than a human would. They have a choice every time I open the door. (And yes, if they ran away, I would feel obligated to find them, but that's because I'm responsible for their health and safety, not because they are my prisoners. The point is that they don't even come close to making the choice to do that. It is far more likely that they would simply get lost outside than actually intentionally run away. This has happened once before to my dog, and his emotional reaction upon me finding him demonstrated compellingly that he felt lost and was happy to be found and reunited.) I might feel conflicted if I ever had a pet that behaved like it wanted to escape from me, but that's never been the case. Even pets that do enjoy to spend time outdoors alone - and I'm happy for them to do that - always want to return to the safety of the home after a time. I would not enjoy having a pet if I thought at all that it felt like a prisoner. Lastly, I would remark on the fact that these animals were raised from infancy by humans and around humans. They are socialized to be part of the family, just like people are. While it is true that they would have different personalities if they were raised in the wilderness, the same would also be true of a human child. If a human child were abandoned alone in the wilderness and somehow survived, then this human would undoubtedly have great difficulty socializing as an adult, and fitting into a family - yet we would not say that this wild person is somehow better or more natural. We would say that their upbringing was cruel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy
wingworks 3y ago
I agree with that. Though we'd need some cost effective way to monitor on leash etc rules are followed by the owners. Around here we have native reserves to try bring back native birds, but vast majority of dog owners ignore the existing leash or no dog rules. Most summers the reserves turn into more of a free dog toilet, and with the vast numbers of dogs going through, it ends up smelling quite bad to.
nullstyle 3y ago
"trying to limit their growth" is IMO approaching the whole situation incorrectly. Not saying I have answers, but IMO it's a narrow perspective that leads to things like the YouTube search results for "Australian cat hunter" or the feral hog tourist hunting shenanigans that go down in Texas. That shit should be condemned. As something of a response to your proposed solutions, I'm a proponent of TNR and adoption, and teaching people to be better animal caretakers. You make some assumptions about "us" and "we" that doesn't line up with my personal take, so I won't say more.

arcticbull 3y ago

I dunno, Alberta has no rats. It's doable if you're willing.

mantas 3y ago

Putting a tiny bell on cats is usually more than enough. At least it gives birds a fair chance.