4 ms·

Just because other people commit genocide doesn't give Israel a free pass to commit genocide while accusing anyone who objects of antisemitism. Also, in the pas

Just because other people commit genocide doesn't give Israel a free pass to commit genocide while accusing anyone who objects of antisemitism. Also, in the past Israel deliberately strengthened Hamas in order to deny Palestinians a functioning government, so not sure what your point is about South Africa.

wonderwonder 3y ago
My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it. Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition. If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks. America laid waste to Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11, killing at least 250k people. That was not genocide and neither is what Israel is doing. Saudi's killed 500k, using starvation as a weapon, that was likely genocide. If you sneak across the border and murder, torture and rape 1000+ people there are going to be very bad consequences. Note: I am in no way downplaying how much suffering the Palestinian civilians are experiencing. Its terrible. What I am saying is Hamas committed an atrocity and left Israel with no choice but to anhiliate them.
- bhouston 3y ago
  > My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it. I think it is great to move these types of disputes into law rather than war. Israel should further embrace the ICC jurisdiction fully and bring Hamas to account there. > Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition. If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks. I am not sure you know what you are talking about. The formal definition of genocide is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition... Directly killing people wholesale isn't the only way to do it. South Africa's presentation to the ICJ this week has a lot of good details: https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/01/11/israel-genocide-trial-icj-hearing-south-africa-genocide-palestinians-gaza/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/01/11/israel-genocide-trial-i... It is a very serious case and it isn't very clear how it will turn out. Right now it could go either way. > Saudi's killed 500k, using starvation as a weapon, that was likely genocide. Israel is free to file a case against Saudi Arabia at the ICJ. > If you sneak across the border and murder, torture and rape 1000+ people there are going to be very bad consequences. Atrocities do not justify further atrocities under international law. That isn't a thing.
  - wonderwonder 3y ago
    Just so we are clear, lets say israel filed a case against Hamas and won. Then what? The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing? Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas. Lets say you have a wife, and 5 kids. Terrorists break into your house and rape your wife and murder 2 of your kids. There are 2 options presented to you. 1. you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die. 2. a special team of negotiators and police spend 3 months slowly working with the community to try and get them to give up the terrorists. 80% of the terrorists are caught. 5 police officers die. The rest are free. In the mean time they kill your wife and cripple one of your remaining kids. Which one do you choose? All the anti Israel people want Israel to pick option 2, when Israel's responsibility has to be to protect its own. Also there really is no such thing as international law. There is only what America allows and does not allow. It may not be fair but thats reality. Those really are the facts on the ground.
    - bhouston 3y ago
      > The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? That isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals. > Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing? With regards to the ICC, there would be international arrest warrants for Hamas leaders and there would be incredibly pressure on a lot of countries to arrest them if they were present in their countries or transiting through them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the... > Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas. You do realize that Netanyahu, and other radicals in the Israeli government, has actually long purposely boosted Hamas by allowing financial transfers and has purposely hurt the Palestinian moderates? Netanyahu viewed supporting Hamas as a way to prevent a 2 state solution: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolste... https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/ https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian... “The Palestinian Authority is a burden, and Hamas is an asset.” So yeah, there is a clear solution here towards a 2-state solution where both Israeli and Palestinians have freedom and safety and self-determination. Providing hope is the best way to stop the growth of radical organizations. > you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die. Even President Biden said that Israel's bombing was indiscriminate. Almost half of the bombs dropped where dumb bombs, that is not targeted at all: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessm...
ericfrazier 3y ago
Just because other people commit genocide doesn't mean we can't fabricate an Israeli genocide as well.

wonderwonder 3y ago

My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it. Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition. If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks. America laid waste to Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11, killing at least 250k people. That was not genocide and neither is what Israel is doing. Saudi's killed 500k, using starvation as a weapon, that was likely genocide. If you sneak across the border and murder, torture and rape 1000+ people there are going to be very bad consequences. Note: I am in no way downplaying how much suffering the Palestinian civilians are experiencing. Its terrible. What I am saying is Hamas committed an atrocity and left Israel with no choice but to anhiliate them.

bhouston 3y ago
> My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it. I think it is great to move these types of disputes into law rather than war. Israel should further embrace the ICC jurisdiction fully and bring Hamas to account there. > Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition. If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks. I am not sure you know what you are talking about. The formal definition of genocide is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition... Directly killing people wholesale isn't the only way to do it. South Africa's presentation to the ICJ this week has a lot of good details: https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/01/11/israel-genocide-trial-icj-hearing-south-africa-genocide-palestinians-gaza/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/01/11/israel-genocide-trial-i... It is a very serious case and it isn't very clear how it will turn out. Right now it could go either way. > Saudi's killed 500k, using starvation as a weapon, that was likely genocide. Israel is free to file a case against Saudi Arabia at the ICJ. > If you sneak across the border and murder, torture and rape 1000+ people there are going to be very bad consequences. Atrocities do not justify further atrocities under international law. That isn't a thing.
- wonderwonder 3y ago
  Just so we are clear, lets say israel filed a case against Hamas and won. Then what? The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing? Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas. Lets say you have a wife, and 5 kids. Terrorists break into your house and rape your wife and murder 2 of your kids. There are 2 options presented to you. 1. you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die. 2. a special team of negotiators and police spend 3 months slowly working with the community to try and get them to give up the terrorists. 80% of the terrorists are caught. 5 police officers die. The rest are free. In the mean time they kill your wife and cripple one of your remaining kids. Which one do you choose? All the anti Israel people want Israel to pick option 2, when Israel's responsibility has to be to protect its own. Also there really is no such thing as international law. There is only what America allows and does not allow. It may not be fair but thats reality. Those really are the facts on the ground.
  - bhouston 3y ago
    > The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? That isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals. > Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing? With regards to the ICC, there would be international arrest warrants for Hamas leaders and there would be incredibly pressure on a lot of countries to arrest them if they were present in their countries or transiting through them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the... > Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas. You do realize that Netanyahu, and other radicals in the Israeli government, has actually long purposely boosted Hamas by allowing financial transfers and has purposely hurt the Palestinian moderates? Netanyahu viewed supporting Hamas as a way to prevent a 2 state solution: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolste... https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/ https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian... “The Palestinian Authority is a burden, and Hamas is an asset.” So yeah, there is a clear solution here towards a 2-state solution where both Israeli and Palestinians have freedom and safety and self-determination. Providing hope is the best way to stop the growth of radical organizations. > you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die. Even President Biden said that Israel's bombing was indiscriminate. Almost half of the bombs dropped where dumb bombs, that is not targeted at all: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessm...

ericfrazier 3y ago

Just because other people commit genocide doesn't mean we can't fabricate an Israeli genocide as well.