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I think it's pretty clear if we cared much about anything we'd be doing a lot of things. But instead, we have this: We have a conversation like this one, I had

I think it's pretty clear if we cared much about anything we'd be doing a lot of things. But instead, we have this: We have a conversation like this one, I had it with my sister. We agree on this statement you've made in that conversation. Sister goes and buys a new gigantic SUV that gets 20 mpg. Understands we were just talking about how bad that is, but make a thousand excuses as to why she using the bad thing is an exception to the rule. We're a few billion exceptions to the rules walking around, very few people want to give up their fun. I've had this conversation with gun owners, oversized truck owners, people interested in public transit it always comes down to something they want everybody else to have to do but not them. We're not going to give up our toys til we're dead.

ghufran_syed 3y ago
or maybe she has, quite rationally, developed “epistemic learned helplessness”? edit: forgot to add the link ( which was reposted to HN earlier today) https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learned-helplessness/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learn...
sprucevoid 3y ago
Many people struggle to motivate themselves to do their part on huge collective action problems like climate change. That's why national and international political action is needed, and in turn needs smaller groups of individuals to put in effort supporting campaigns for such action. That said lots of people do care in their daily lives and also put that care into practical individual action - and have a fun and meaningful time doing so. In my experience not owning a SUV or any car at all doesn't feel like "not having fun". It feels sensible and what I have good reason to do and it feels purposeful, a part of doing what I can to cause less harm in this world, from the lucky situation life has dealt me. I understand that some people really need a car for work, especially in car centric regions. But almost everyone has a range of other things where they can do their part and act to improve things.
- junofan 3y ago
  Wouldn’t it be more effective to phase out oil and coal production? Couldn’t that be enforced with remote sensing satellites and cruise missiles? I’m not seeing the collective action problem here. All the personal shaming stuff feels like a big grift.
  - knodi123 3y ago
    no, it's not ecologically effective to bomb all the oil platforms. That would actually be an ecological disaster.
  - sprucevoid 3y ago
    Phasing out oil and coal production would be great, but that's a task for politics. It is still a collective action problem though since any such agenda needs to gain popular support in a democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem As individuals we can both take some actions to reduce climate impact in our daily lives and also support movements and campaigns for actions on the political level. No contradiction there.
  - abenga 3y ago
    We don't need to stop production. Reducing/ eliminating demand will work just as well.
gitaarik 3y ago
Or you could actually make those things more important in your life. And realise you don't necessarily need to acquire more material things all the time to live a satisfied life. And you can be an example and inspiration to other people. Life is not just about toys.

ghufran_syed 3y ago

or maybe she has, quite rationally, developed “epistemic learned helplessness”? edit: forgot to add the link ( which was reposted to HN earlier today) https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learned-helplessness/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learn...

sprucevoid 3y ago

Many people struggle to motivate themselves to do their part on huge collective action problems like climate change. That's why national and international political action is needed, and in turn needs smaller groups of individuals to put in effort supporting campaigns for such action. That said lots of people do care in their daily lives and also put that care into practical individual action - and have a fun and meaningful time doing so. In my experience not owning a SUV or any car at all doesn't feel like "not having fun". It feels sensible and what I have good reason to do and it feels purposeful, a part of doing what I can to cause less harm in this world, from the lucky situation life has dealt me. I understand that some people really need a car for work, especially in car centric regions. But almost everyone has a range of other things where they can do their part and act to improve things.

junofan 3y ago
Wouldn’t it be more effective to phase out oil and coal production? Couldn’t that be enforced with remote sensing satellites and cruise missiles? I’m not seeing the collective action problem here. All the personal shaming stuff feels like a big grift.
- knodi123 3y ago
  no, it's not ecologically effective to bomb all the oil platforms. That would actually be an ecological disaster.
- sprucevoid 3y ago
  Phasing out oil and coal production would be great, but that's a task for politics. It is still a collective action problem though since any such agenda needs to gain popular support in a democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem As individuals we can both take some actions to reduce climate impact in our daily lives and also support movements and campaigns for actions on the political level. No contradiction there.
- abenga 3y ago
  We don't need to stop production. Reducing/ eliminating demand will work just as well.

gitaarik 3y ago

Or you could actually make those things more important in your life. And realise you don't necessarily need to acquire more material things all the time to live a satisfied life. And you can be an example and inspiration to other people. Life is not just about toys.