5 ms·

Haven't they already been selling military tech to basically all western countries for along time? I'm unclear what the news here is.

bhouston 3y ago
I am unsure if Palantir has other clients who have cases in from of the International Court of Justice on accusations of genocide - it has a lot of coverage right now. Here is a summary article from CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/09/middleeast/israel-genocide-case-world-court-gaza-mime-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/09/middleeast/israel-genocide-ca... Does Palantir sell to Myanmar? If Israel actually gets convicted of breaches under the convention, of which there is a chance, would you be comfortable selling technology that is aiding in their "war-related missions"?
- wonderwonder 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - filoleg 3y ago
    I was about to say, I don’t see why one would feel more uncomfortable about selling them a glorified data analytics platform, as opposed to selling them cloud compute resources or Office365 subscription (while keeping in mind that all of those would be used for “war-related missions”). EDIT: The parent comment has been substantially changed since I posted this reply. Originally, it just said “yes.” Considering what it currently states after the edit (going into a side-tangent about UN’s inaction against Saudi Arabia’s activities in Yemen, as well as their anti-Israel bias), it changes the context of my reply fairly significantly.
    - wonderwonder 3y ago
      Agreed, not to mention the US / Lockheed / Boeing etc. openly provides the weapons and bombs used. Palintir is a drop in the bucket.
    - bhouston 3y ago
      Israel is using AI apparently to target their bombings: https://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1218643254/israel-is-using-an-ai-system-to-find-targets-in-gaza-experts-say-its-just-the-st https://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1218643254/israel-is-using-an... These are the bombings that Biden has referred to as indiscriminate, which is technically a war crime. Does that mean that the market of the AI software is partially responsible for war crime enabled by its software? https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-12-14/biden-calls-gaza-bombing-indiscriminate-either-way-it-isn-t-smart https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-12-14/biden-...
      - filoleg 3y ago
        > Israel is using AI apparently to target their bombings How does that have anything to do with Palantir or even foreign countries providing military support to Israel? The AI system in the article you linked was developed in-house by Israeli military. > These are the bombings that Biden has referred to as indiscriminate I don’t want get into an argument on an unrelated topic or defend Israel whatsoever, but indiscriminate? You realize that the AI system described is only used for generating the initial list of potential target locations, right? The human analysts are the ones reviewing the targets and all relevant intel manually, and and then deciding which ones to act on. Their AI doesn’t make decisions or “pull the trigger” or aim or anything like that. The AI is only in the loop for the very first step of the process (which is just generating a rough initial draft of potential target locations), every step after that is all good old manual work that would happen the exact same way as if AI didn’t exist at all. None of this is a guess or a conjecture on my part, it was explicitly stated in the NPR article you linked.
        bhouston 3y ago
        > The AI system in the article you linked was developed in-house by Israeli military. Given that Palantir is just starting this partnership, they could be the ones providing the next version of AI targeting technology. This isn't theoretical, this is the type of stuff Palantir is involved in. > The AI is only in the loop for the very first step of the process (which is just generating a rough initial draft of potential target locations), every step after that is all good old manual work that would happen the exact same way as if AI didn’t exist at all. We probably agree here to some degree. But I still wouldn't want to be personally creating technology that is being used for indiscriminate bombings, even if it is only partially responsible.
  - octopoc 3y ago
    Just because other people commit genocide doesn't give Israel a free pass to commit genocide while accusing anyone who objects of antisemitism. Also, in the past Israel deliberately strengthened Hamas in order to deny Palestinians a functioning government, so not sure what your point is about South Africa.
    - wonderwonder 3y ago
      My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it. Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition. If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks. America laid waste to Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11, killing at least 250k people. That was not genocide and neither is what Israel is doing. Saudi's killed 500k, using starvation as a weapon, that was likely genocide. If you sneak across the border and murder, torture and rape 1000+ people there are going to be very bad consequences. Note: I am in no way downplaying how much suffering the Palestinian civilians are experiencing. Its terrible. What I am saying is Hamas committed an atrocity and left Israel with no choice but to anhiliate them.
      - bhouston 3y ago
        > My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it. I think it is great to move these types of disputes into law rather than war. Israel should further embrace the ICC jurisdiction fully and bring Hamas to account there. > Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition. If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks. I am not sure you know what you are talking about. The formal definition of genocide is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition... Directly killing people wholesale isn't the only way to do it. South Africa's presentation to the ICJ this week has a lot of good details: https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/01/11/israel-genocide-trial-icj-hearing-south-africa-genocide-palestinians-gaza/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/01/11/israel-genocide-trial-i... It is a very serious case and it isn't very clear how it will turn out. Right now it could go either way. > Saudi's killed 500k, using starvation as a weapon, that was likely genocide. Israel is free to file a case against Saudi Arabia at the ICJ. > If you sneak across the border and murder, torture and rape 1000+ people there are going to be very bad consequences. Atrocities do not justify further atrocities under international law. That isn't a thing.
  - ericfrazier 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - enterprise_cog 3y ago
      Ironic considering you can’t even discuss the claims without shutting down any critical thinking with claims of bias.
      - ericfrazier 3y ago
        Buddy, there's just no other way to explain it. There's just no other way other than antisemitism to explain the vitriol Israel gets compared to worse actions of others. If you were on the receiving end of this new wave of masks-off antisemitism you would understand, but you're not. Your on the giving end.
    - bhouston 3y ago
      This is why it is great to bring a case to the ICJ. It means we are not just sorting out whether it is genocide or not based on social media upvotes/likes.
      - ericfrazier 3y ago
        Hey you didn't murder anyone but you shouldn't mind going before a joke trial and proving you didn't in front of a bunch of racist antisemites who want you convicted no matter what.
- dgrin91 3y ago
  I would not be shocked at all if Palantir sold to Myanmar. Also there is 0 chance of conviction. Also I think you are unfamiliar of Peter Theil and his beliefs, I would recommend some research there (hint: he wouldn't care).
  - bhouston 3y ago
    > Also there is 0 chance of conviction. This is more of a belief that a real claim. Israel lost the last case at the ICJ. Russia is looking like it will lose its case at the ICJ. At this point it looks like it isn't a sure thing that Israel will beat the charges.
    - dgrin91 3y ago
      Sorry, you are correct. What I thought in my head and somehow didn't get out onto the keyboard was 'there is 0 chance a conviction will have any real world impact', because the ICJ has no teeth and people who oppose/support the court tend to have a corresponding believe of supporting/opposing Israel. So bottom line it doesn't really matter happens at the ICJ.
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  Here are the broadcast and the the transcript of the first day of hearings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240111-ora-01-00-bi.pdf https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192...

bhouston 3y ago

I am unsure if Palantir has other clients who have cases in from of the International Court of Justice on accusations of genocide - it has a lot of coverage right now. Here is a summary article from CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/09/middleeast/israel-genocide-case-world-court-gaza-mime-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/09/middleeast/israel-genocide-ca... Does Palantir sell to Myanmar? If Israel actually gets convicted of breaches under the convention, of which there is a chance, would you be comfortable selling technology that is aiding in their "war-related missions"?

wonderwonder 3y ago
[flagged]
- filoleg 3y ago
  I was about to say, I don’t see why one would feel more uncomfortable about selling them a glorified data analytics platform, as opposed to selling them cloud compute resources or Office365 subscription (while keeping in mind that all of those would be used for “war-related missions”). EDIT: The parent comment has been substantially changed since I posted this reply. Originally, it just said “yes.” Considering what it currently states after the edit (going into a side-tangent about UN’s inaction against Saudi Arabia’s activities in Yemen, as well as their anti-Israel bias), it changes the context of my reply fairly significantly.
  - wonderwonder 3y ago
    Agreed, not to mention the US / Lockheed / Boeing etc. openly provides the weapons and bombs used. Palintir is a drop in the bucket.
  - bhouston 3y ago
    Israel is using AI apparently to target their bombings: https://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1218643254/israel-is-using-an-ai-system-to-find-targets-in-gaza-experts-say-its-just-the-st https://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1218643254/israel-is-using-an... These are the bombings that Biden has referred to as indiscriminate, which is technically a war crime. Does that mean that the market of the AI software is partially responsible for war crime enabled by its software? https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-12-14/biden-calls-gaza-bombing-indiscriminate-either-way-it-isn-t-smart https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-12-14/biden-...
    - filoleg 3y ago
      > Israel is using AI apparently to target their bombings How does that have anything to do with Palantir or even foreign countries providing military support to Israel? The AI system in the article you linked was developed in-house by Israeli military. > These are the bombings that Biden has referred to as indiscriminate I don’t want get into an argument on an unrelated topic or defend Israel whatsoever, but indiscriminate? You realize that the AI system described is only used for generating the initial list of potential target locations, right? The human analysts are the ones reviewing the targets and all relevant intel manually, and and then deciding which ones to act on. Their AI doesn’t make decisions or “pull the trigger” or aim or anything like that. The AI is only in the loop for the very first step of the process (which is just generating a rough initial draft of potential target locations), every step after that is all good old manual work that would happen the exact same way as if AI didn’t exist at all. None of this is a guess or a conjecture on my part, it was explicitly stated in the NPR article you linked.
      - bhouston 3y ago
        > The AI system in the article you linked was developed in-house by Israeli military. Given that Palantir is just starting this partnership, they could be the ones providing the next version of AI targeting technology. This isn't theoretical, this is the type of stuff Palantir is involved in. > The AI is only in the loop for the very first step of the process (which is just generating a rough initial draft of potential target locations), every step after that is all good old manual work that would happen the exact same way as if AI didn’t exist at all. We probably agree here to some degree. But I still wouldn't want to be personally creating technology that is being used for indiscriminate bombings, even if it is only partially responsible.
- octopoc 3y ago
  Just because other people commit genocide doesn't give Israel a free pass to commit genocide while accusing anyone who objects of antisemitism. Also, in the past Israel deliberately strengthened Hamas in order to deny Palestinians a functioning government, so not sure what your point is about South Africa.
  - wonderwonder 3y ago
    My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it. Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition. If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks. America laid waste to Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11, killing at least 250k people. That was not genocide and neither is what Israel is doing. Saudi's killed 500k, using starvation as a weapon, that was likely genocide. If you sneak across the border and murder, torture and rape 1000+ people there are going to be very bad consequences. Note: I am in no way downplaying how much suffering the Palestinian civilians are experiencing. Its terrible. What I am saying is Hamas committed an atrocity and left Israel with no choice but to anhiliate them.
    - bhouston 3y ago
      > My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it. I think it is great to move these types of disputes into law rather than war. Israel should further embrace the ICC jurisdiction fully and bring Hamas to account there. > Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition. If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks. I am not sure you know what you are talking about. The formal definition of genocide is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition... Directly killing people wholesale isn't the only way to do it. South Africa's presentation to the ICJ this week has a lot of good details: https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/01/11/israel-genocide-trial-icj-hearing-south-africa-genocide-palestinians-gaza/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/01/11/israel-genocide-trial-i... It is a very serious case and it isn't very clear how it will turn out. Right now it could go either way. > Saudi's killed 500k, using starvation as a weapon, that was likely genocide. Israel is free to file a case against Saudi Arabia at the ICJ. > If you sneak across the border and murder, torture and rape 1000+ people there are going to be very bad consequences. Atrocities do not justify further atrocities under international law. That isn't a thing.
- ericfrazier 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - enterprise_cog 3y ago
    Ironic considering you can’t even discuss the claims without shutting down any critical thinking with claims of bias.
    - ericfrazier 3y ago
      Buddy, there's just no other way to explain it. There's just no other way other than antisemitism to explain the vitriol Israel gets compared to worse actions of others. If you were on the receiving end of this new wave of masks-off antisemitism you would understand, but you're not. Your on the giving end.
  - bhouston 3y ago
    This is why it is great to bring a case to the ICJ. It means we are not just sorting out whether it is genocide or not based on social media upvotes/likes.
    - ericfrazier 3y ago
      Hey you didn't murder anyone but you shouldn't mind going before a joke trial and proving you didn't in front of a bunch of racist antisemites who want you convicted no matter what.
dgrin91 3y ago
I would not be shocked at all if Palantir sold to Myanmar. Also there is 0 chance of conviction. Also I think you are unfamiliar of Peter Theil and his beliefs, I would recommend some research there (hint: he wouldn't care).
- bhouston 3y ago
  > Also there is 0 chance of conviction. This is more of a belief that a real claim. Israel lost the last case at the ICJ. Russia is looking like it will lose its case at the ICJ. At this point it looks like it isn't a sure thing that Israel will beat the charges.
  - dgrin91 3y ago
    Sorry, you are correct. What I thought in my head and somehow didn't get out onto the keyboard was 'there is 0 chance a conviction will have any real world impact', because the ICJ has no teeth and people who oppose/support the court tend to have a corresponding believe of supporting/opposing Israel. So bottom line it doesn't really matter happens at the ICJ.
johnnyworker 3y ago
Here are the broadcast and the the transcript of the first day of hearings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240111-ora-01-00-bi.pdf https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192...