4 ms·

One problem with the experiment mentioned at the beginning of the article is that the participants still knew that a drug was being administered, which by itsel

by scooke 3y ago

One problem with the experiment mentioned at the beginning of the article is that the participants still knew that a drug was being administered, which by itself would be enough to precipitate a reaction. Another aspect that I'd be curious about is who these religious people were... What denomination. No Christians I know would agree to doing this - Drugs? No. Partly out of a sense of morals, but more so because they wouldn't want their experience with God tainted by chemicals. There probably are other experiments out there where religious ppl were administered drugs but did not know it... Those results would be interesting to read about, including subsequent beliefs or positions about one's standing with God.

RationalDino 3y ago
The experiment in question happened over 60 years ago. This was before the War on Drugs, before the hippies, and before most people had any familiarity with these drugs. Public attitudes were very different. And the attitudes of Christians today are largely shaped by political battles that had not yet happened. Thus your current experience is not a good predictor of how easy it was to find Christians back then who would have been willing. In fact I used to know some very conservative people who were exposed to LSD back in that early era. (They were old back when I knew them, and are dead now.) And based on what they told me, I would predict no resistance to such an experiment in 1962.
- pixl97 3y ago
  Currently Christianity is associated with conservatism, hence more anti-drug behavior. And this isn't exactly incorrect these days either. As the population of self identifying Christians in the US shrinks, those that remain are apt to be those with a very strong ideological base.
  - RationalDino 3y ago
    That is true. But in the early 60s, before the rise of the Religious Right, no such association existed. For example https://www.pbs.org/thisfarbyfaith/journey_4/p_2.html https://www.pbs.org/thisfarbyfaith/journey_4/p_2.html shows the strong Christian support for the Civil Rights Movement. Also it wouldn't have mattered back then. In the early 60s, drugs were associated with neither conservativism or liberalism. Anecdote time. My ex's grandfather was a very conservative, very Christian lawyer. He happened to also be a lawyer for some people who were involved with LSD in the early days, and hence actually tried LSD in the time frame of the research article in question. He used to laugh about how he was someone that nobody would think had taken LSD. It was a different time.
hprotagonist 3y ago
>Another aspect that I'd be curious about is who these religious people were... What denomination. No Christians I know would agree to doing this . The study participants were all Christian seminary and theology students, of mainline protestant denominations. The study was run by an ordained minister (and doctor!) who was pursuing his PhD. Permission was granted to use marsh chapel by howard thurman, who (i hope) needs no introduction. A statistically unlikely high percentage of study participants were subsequently ordained, and described the experiment as a spiritually significant / formative experience. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment#Doblin's_follow-up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment#Doblin... and linked citations ) I don't think your objections hold water.
washadjeffmad 3y ago
In my (American) experience, there is a world of difference between the parishioner and the theologian. I don't know any theologian who could resist an offer of an experience that might give them insight into the mind of their creator. Also, this took place in the 1960s. Post-"War on Drugs" indoctrination wasn't in effect, and consciousness expansion - the understanding that reality is greater than our limited and incomplete human senses can perceive, but that they can be enhanced - was popular. If you're interested in the range (and similarity) of entheogen experiences, there are many accounts from people across the world recorded on the web going back decades. It makes for very interesting history. There's a very modern fear at play here, but it's fear of the state, not of gods. Substance use as a ritual aid aligns with both religious-historic accounts and evidence found in early Abrahamic temples. For example: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cannabis-found-altar-ancient-israeli-shrine-180975016/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cannabis-found-alt...
dfxm12 3y ago
No Christians I know would agree to doing this - Drugs? No. There are a lot of Christians out there. I suggest not trying generalize them based on the relatively insignificant number you know.

by scooke 3y ago

RationalDino 3y ago

The experiment in question happened over 60 years ago. This was before the War on Drugs, before the hippies, and before most people had any familiarity with these drugs. Public attitudes were very different. And the attitudes of Christians today are largely shaped by political battles that had not yet happened. Thus your current experience is not a good predictor of how easy it was to find Christians back then who would have been willing. In fact I used to know some very conservative people who were exposed to LSD back in that early era. (They were old back when I knew them, and are dead now.) And based on what they told me, I would predict no resistance to such an experiment in 1962.

pixl97 3y ago
Currently Christianity is associated with conservatism, hence more anti-drug behavior. And this isn't exactly incorrect these days either. As the population of self identifying Christians in the US shrinks, those that remain are apt to be those with a very strong ideological base.
- RationalDino 3y ago
  That is true. But in the early 60s, before the rise of the Religious Right, no such association existed. For example https://www.pbs.org/thisfarbyfaith/journey_4/p_2.html https://www.pbs.org/thisfarbyfaith/journey_4/p_2.html shows the strong Christian support for the Civil Rights Movement. Also it wouldn't have mattered back then. In the early 60s, drugs were associated with neither conservativism or liberalism. Anecdote time. My ex's grandfather was a very conservative, very Christian lawyer. He happened to also be a lawyer for some people who were involved with LSD in the early days, and hence actually tried LSD in the time frame of the research article in question. He used to laugh about how he was someone that nobody would think had taken LSD. It was a different time.

hprotagonist 3y ago

>Another aspect that I'd be curious about is who these religious people were... What denomination. No Christians I know would agree to doing this . The study participants were all Christian seminary and theology students, of mainline protestant denominations. The study was run by an ordained minister (and doctor!) who was pursuing his PhD. Permission was granted to use marsh chapel by howard thurman, who (i hope) needs no introduction. A statistically unlikely high percentage of study participants were subsequently ordained, and described the experiment as a spiritually significant / formative experience. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment#Doblin's_follow-up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment#Doblin... and linked citations ) I don't think your objections hold water.

washadjeffmad 3y ago

In my (American) experience, there is a world of difference between the parishioner and the theologian. I don't know any theologian who could resist an offer of an experience that might give them insight into the mind of their creator. Also, this took place in the 1960s. Post-"War on Drugs" indoctrination wasn't in effect, and consciousness expansion - the understanding that reality is greater than our limited and incomplete human senses can perceive, but that they can be enhanced - was popular. If you're interested in the range (and similarity) of entheogen experiences, there are many accounts from people across the world recorded on the web going back decades. It makes for very interesting history. There's a very modern fear at play here, but it's fear of the state, not of gods. Substance use as a ritual aid aligns with both religious-historic accounts and evidence found in early Abrahamic temples. For example: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cannabis-found-altar-ancient-israeli-shrine-180975016/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cannabis-found-alt...

dfxm12 3y ago

No Christians I know would agree to doing this - Drugs? No. There are a lot of Christians out there. I suggest not trying generalize them based on the relatively insignificant number you know.