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> It's also notable that the term "file" most likely derives more from the concept of a paper file Yes, that's right. The dictionary defines file as "a folder

> It's also notable that the term "file" most likely derives more from the concept of a paper file Yes, that's right. The dictionary defines file as "a folder or box for holding loose papers that are typically arranged in a particular order for easy reference." Which is literally what a box of punchcards is – hence how the word made its way into computing. Obviously modern computers do not actually use files in any way. All we have today is a loose abstraction that pretends to represent a file, and within that abstraction Unix-like systems place processes and TCP connections. These are all files in the abstracted sense. Other systems may choose to do things differently. Again, modern computers don't have actual files, just a pretending that they do. For better or worse, we have come to agree that abstraction can also be named "file", even if it is not actually a box full of paper. Which is true of a lot of things in computing. It turns out that floppy disk button you often see doesn't have anything to do with floppy disks. Hard to believe, I know.

simiones 3y ago
My point is that the way this made it to computing is not so much the specific "file of punch cards", but through a more abstract route: "a physical file is a way to store information in an organization" -> "anything that stores data in a system in general can be called a file" -> "data stored on a computer system is called a file". We used the expression "to have on file" / "to put on file" to mean "to have stored in some way, not necessarily in a physical file" even before computing was a thing. So, "a file" in the figurative sense means "something that is stored" - whether that's a physical file in a file cabinet or someone's memory, or an entry in a ledger etc. This matches the term "file" as it is used in Windows and in most other operating systems, and the way it was used in the earliest Unix systems. However, it doesn't actually match the way it is used in modern Unix systems - a process or an event or a mutex is not "something that is stored". So, calling these things "files" is unusual and doesn't match the normal figurative meaning of "file", within or without computing.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > My point is that the way this made it to computing is not so much the specific "file of punch cards", but through a more abstract route That is not what the history books tell. If you have a different story to share, I'm sure the record would love to be updated. I'm rather surprised you haven't already shared your story with us. I guess you don't really have a point. > So, "a file" in the figurative sense means "something that is stored" I expect you are thinking of the parallel definition of "file", the one which often goes along with the word "folder". Which is a funny one as in the real world the folder is the file as it is abstracted in that model, but anyway... What we speak of may not be a file in that sense, but as it happens, words can have multiple meanings. In fact, you just spent half your comment telling us that, so there is no turning back now...
  - simiones 3y ago
    > If you have a different story to share, I'm sure the record would love to be updated. Sure, just looking at the Wikipedia article on "Computer file" [0], we see that the "punched card file" was only an early use of the word in relation to computing. But they show a slightly later use [1] that matches our modern notion much better, and that uses the exact expression "on file", without referencing punched cards in any way, so quite clearly not in a way derived from the practice of keeping information on punched chard files: > [...] But such speed is valueless unless - with comparable speed - the results of countless computations can be kept "on file" and taken out again [emphasis mine]. > Such a "file" now exists in a "memory" tube, developed at RCA Laboratories. Wikipedia also shows that "file" was often used in the early days of computing to refer to the storage location, the physical storage device, not the contents in memory. For example, what we'd today call "disks" were called "disk files". Wikipedia ultimately claims, unfortunately without a citation, that the modern sense of the term "file" came to denote the contents rather than the physical storage once the first "file systems" started being used, and those were managing multiple "virtual files" (that is, what we'd call virtual disks today). > I expect you are thinking of the parallel definition of "file", the one which often goes along with the word "folder" Yes, since that is quite obviously the metaphor most lay people have been taught in modern times at least: your data is organized in file folders, each containing multiple files. Basically in this context, "file" is more or less a synonym for "document". This is the most directly applicable non-computing equivalent of the modern computing term "file" (and it, again, doesn't match most things that are "files" in Unix). And yes, of course words have many different meanings. A file can also mean something that you use on your nails, but that is obviously not relevant to what we're discussing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_file https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_file [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20220109114611/https://books.google.com/books?id=9SwDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA96#v=onepage&q&f=false https://web.archive.org/web/20220109114611/https://books.goo...

simiones 3y ago

My point is that the way this made it to computing is not so much the specific "file of punch cards", but through a more abstract route: "a physical file is a way to store information in an organization" -> "anything that stores data in a system in general can be called a file" -> "data stored on a computer system is called a file". We used the expression "to have on file" / "to put on file" to mean "to have stored in some way, not necessarily in a physical file" even before computing was a thing. So, "a file" in the figurative sense means "something that is stored" - whether that's a physical file in a file cabinet or someone's memory, or an entry in a ledger etc. This matches the term "file" as it is used in Windows and in most other operating systems, and the way it was used in the earliest Unix systems. However, it doesn't actually match the way it is used in modern Unix systems - a process or an event or a mutex is not "something that is stored". So, calling these things "files" is unusual and doesn't match the normal figurative meaning of "file", within or without computing.

randomdata 3y ago
> My point is that the way this made it to computing is not so much the specific "file of punch cards", but through a more abstract route That is not what the history books tell. If you have a different story to share, I'm sure the record would love to be updated. I'm rather surprised you haven't already shared your story with us. I guess you don't really have a point. > So, "a file" in the figurative sense means "something that is stored" I expect you are thinking of the parallel definition of "file", the one which often goes along with the word "folder". Which is a funny one as in the real world the folder is the file as it is abstracted in that model, but anyway... What we speak of may not be a file in that sense, but as it happens, words can have multiple meanings. In fact, you just spent half your comment telling us that, so there is no turning back now...
- simiones 3y ago
  > If you have a different story to share, I'm sure the record would love to be updated. Sure, just looking at the Wikipedia article on "Computer file" [0], we see that the "punched card file" was only an early use of the word in relation to computing. But they show a slightly later use [1] that matches our modern notion much better, and that uses the exact expression "on file", without referencing punched cards in any way, so quite clearly not in a way derived from the practice of keeping information on punched chard files: > [...] But such speed is valueless unless - with comparable speed - the results of countless computations can be kept "on file" and taken out again [emphasis mine]. > Such a "file" now exists in a "memory" tube, developed at RCA Laboratories. Wikipedia also shows that "file" was often used in the early days of computing to refer to the storage location, the physical storage device, not the contents in memory. For example, what we'd today call "disks" were called "disk files". Wikipedia ultimately claims, unfortunately without a citation, that the modern sense of the term "file" came to denote the contents rather than the physical storage once the first "file systems" started being used, and those were managing multiple "virtual files" (that is, what we'd call virtual disks today). > I expect you are thinking of the parallel definition of "file", the one which often goes along with the word "folder" Yes, since that is quite obviously the metaphor most lay people have been taught in modern times at least: your data is organized in file folders, each containing multiple files. Basically in this context, "file" is more or less a synonym for "document". This is the most directly applicable non-computing equivalent of the modern computing term "file" (and it, again, doesn't match most things that are "files" in Unix). And yes, of course words have many different meanings. A file can also mean something that you use on your nails, but that is obviously not relevant to what we're discussing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_file https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_file [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20220109114611/https://books.google.com/books?id=9SwDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA96#v=onepage&q&f=false https://web.archive.org/web/20220109114611/https://books.goo...