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> You are nitpicking historical events. In response to the straw man that people who criticize Israel never do so based on principles they apply to everything

> You are nitpicking historical events. In response to the straw man that people who criticize Israel never do so based on principles they apply to everything else as well, which warrants no response at all. It's not even worth taking note of at this point, it's just a square on a bingo card that got real old real quick.

wslh 3y ago
The problem here about fallacies is that these discussions have real world implication and are not a theorem in a chalkboard. People kill and die based on ideas, power, etc and not following logical rules. That is the main fallacy: applying [only] logic to the human world.
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  I was just saying that there is no such thing as an insufficient counter-argument to something that can't even stand on its own. "People who say X NEVER say Y" is just.. nothing. And when I "apply logic to the human world" there is not an instance in which I'm not fully "inside" the human world myself. Logic isn't some magical outside thing, and like conversation it doesn't have to be a means to an end.
  - wslh 3y ago
    Do you agree that war is a continuation of politics? (probabilistically speaking)
    - johnnyworker 3y ago
      What does "war" have to do with dropping 2000lbs bombs in one of the most densely populated areas of the world, bombing refugee camps, stripping people in the streets, sniping a 70 year old women with a white flag and fleeing with a child, destroying streets just to make Gaza unlivable, singing about how there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, spraying demented graffitis in the homes of Palestinians that are either racist or religious zealotry? Politics? All that stuff is a result of personality disorders and group dynamics between people with personality disorders. The incapability to have empathy and the inability to reflect, the positive NEED to deflect every single time, talk about the other, talk about something else, is the one constant.
      - wslh 3y ago
        Are you saying that this is a planned genocide order executed by the IDF? I was just looking at your profile [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=johnnyworker https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=johnnyworker
        johnnyworker 3y ago
        So you can't answer the question, instead of making it about me. Called it? So, are you denying it? Here's IDF dancing chanting genocidal stuff. And what they showed is nothing compared to what's out there. As the SA legal team said, the refrained from shock value. Let me know if you need more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s (isn't it "funny" how like 1% of the Western Channels that reported on Israel's "defense" didn't say a peep about the day before that? That's a matter of record now, too, another thing that won't be forgotten nor forgiven. The casual treatment people in Palestine like vermin, if not just collateral, was heard around the world. The people who are already tired of hearing that are in for such a rough ride.) There's taxis and busses with genocidal slogans driving around. This goes way deeper than the prime minister, countless other ministers and Knesset members, IDF generals and IDF soldiers. https://twitter.com/ireallyhateyou/status/1745088385197260808 https://twitter.com/ireallyhateyou/status/174508838519726080... Jason Hickel put it well: > The US and UK are bombing Yemen, one of the poorest countries in the world, so that Israel can continue its genocide and mass displacement of the Palestinian people in Gaza without disruption. That's the reality we're in. While Jason Cameron can't answer the question if turning off water is a breach of international humanitarian law because "he's not a lawyer".
        wslh 3y ago
        Let's see what happens in the ICJ which works in the real ruling.
        johnnyworker 3y ago
        Yes, of course. But that will take years. In the meantime, time is of the essence, due to the nature of the alleged crime. From the first day of hearings ( https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240111-ora-01-00-bi.pdf https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... ) > 3. South Africa has come to this Court to prevent genocide and to do so in the discharge of the international obligation that rests on South Africa and all other States under the Convention. The consequences of not indicating clear and particularized, specific, provisional measures - and not taking steps to intervene while Israel disregards its international obligations before our eyes - would, we fear, be very grave indeed: for the Palestinians in Gaza, who remain at real risk of further genocidal acts; for the integrity of the Convention; for the rights of South Africa; and for the reputation of this Court, which is equipped with and must exercise its powers to afford an effective realization of the rights under the Convention. > 4. That means, we respectfully submit, indicating the provisional measures being sought by South Africa, as well as any others in addition which the Court might deem appropriate. Justice, and equal respect for the rights of Palestinians, points overwhelmingly in favour of these critically required provisional measures. ---- (Oh, and also I'd like to add that I had no idea who Jason Hickel was, just had seen that tweet and agreed with it.. but I checked him out since and I wish I could edit that quote out, because that man is terrible)

wslh 3y ago

The problem here about fallacies is that these discussions have real world implication and are not a theorem in a chalkboard. People kill and die based on ideas, power, etc and not following logical rules. That is the main fallacy: applying [only] logic to the human world.

johnnyworker 3y ago
I was just saying that there is no such thing as an insufficient counter-argument to something that can't even stand on its own. "People who say X NEVER say Y" is just.. nothing. And when I "apply logic to the human world" there is not an instance in which I'm not fully "inside" the human world myself. Logic isn't some magical outside thing, and like conversation it doesn't have to be a means to an end.
- wslh 3y ago
  Do you agree that war is a continuation of politics? (probabilistically speaking)
  - johnnyworker 3y ago
    What does "war" have to do with dropping 2000lbs bombs in one of the most densely populated areas of the world, bombing refugee camps, stripping people in the streets, sniping a 70 year old women with a white flag and fleeing with a child, destroying streets just to make Gaza unlivable, singing about how there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, spraying demented graffitis in the homes of Palestinians that are either racist or religious zealotry? Politics? All that stuff is a result of personality disorders and group dynamics between people with personality disorders. The incapability to have empathy and the inability to reflect, the positive NEED to deflect every single time, talk about the other, talk about something else, is the one constant.
    - wslh 3y ago
      Are you saying that this is a planned genocide order executed by the IDF? I was just looking at your profile [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=johnnyworker https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=johnnyworker
      - johnnyworker 3y ago
        So you can't answer the question, instead of making it about me. Called it? So, are you denying it? Here's IDF dancing chanting genocidal stuff. And what they showed is nothing compared to what's out there. As the SA legal team said, the refrained from shock value. Let me know if you need more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s (isn't it "funny" how like 1% of the Western Channels that reported on Israel's "defense" didn't say a peep about the day before that? That's a matter of record now, too, another thing that won't be forgotten nor forgiven. The casual treatment people in Palestine like vermin, if not just collateral, was heard around the world. The people who are already tired of hearing that are in for such a rough ride.) There's taxis and busses with genocidal slogans driving around. This goes way deeper than the prime minister, countless other ministers and Knesset members, IDF generals and IDF soldiers. https://twitter.com/ireallyhateyou/status/1745088385197260808 https://twitter.com/ireallyhateyou/status/174508838519726080... Jason Hickel put it well: > The US and UK are bombing Yemen, one of the poorest countries in the world, so that Israel can continue its genocide and mass displacement of the Palestinian people in Gaza without disruption. That's the reality we're in. While Jason Cameron can't answer the question if turning off water is a breach of international humanitarian law because "he's not a lawyer".
        wslh 3y ago
        Let's see what happens in the ICJ which works in the real ruling.
        johnnyworker 3y ago
        Yes, of course. But that will take years. In the meantime, time is of the essence, due to the nature of the alleged crime. From the first day of hearings ( https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240111-ora-01-00-bi.pdf https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... ) > 3. South Africa has come to this Court to prevent genocide and to do so in the discharge of the international obligation that rests on South Africa and all other States under the Convention. The consequences of not indicating clear and particularized, specific, provisional measures - and not taking steps to intervene while Israel disregards its international obligations before our eyes - would, we fear, be very grave indeed: for the Palestinians in Gaza, who remain at real risk of further genocidal acts; for the integrity of the Convention; for the rights of South Africa; and for the reputation of this Court, which is equipped with and must exercise its powers to afford an effective realization of the rights under the Convention. > 4. That means, we respectfully submit, indicating the provisional measures being sought by South Africa, as well as any others in addition which the Court might deem appropriate. Justice, and equal respect for the rights of Palestinians, points overwhelmingly in favour of these critically required provisional measures. ---- (Oh, and also I'd like to add that I had no idea who Jason Hickel was, just had seen that tweet and agreed with it.. but I checked him out since and I wish I could edit that quote out, because that man is terrible)