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> It's a bummer, but this is how this has been done for decades (generations?) and everybody knows it's how it's done, and that has in no way made companies "th

> It's a bummer, but this is how this has been done for decades (generations?) and everybody knows it's how it's done, and that has in no way made companies "think twice" about business leaders assigning fairly low level employees or consultants to do these meetings just like this. No, avoiding the words "we're laying you off" by lying about your performance and telling you that you're instead being fired is not "how this has been done for decades".

sanderjd 3y ago
You don't think employers have pretty much always tried to avoid being required to pay severance and unemployment? If so, that seems to me like an unrealistically rosy view of the past.
- cstrahan 3y ago
  I’m well aware that bad behavior is a thing. Some driver’s cut each other off in traffic, weaving in and out of lanes. Some customers condescend to service workers, knowing they can’t retaliate without losing their jobs. And some reprobate employers do shitty things like we’re seeing here. Are you really arguing against me when I say that this is exceptionally abhorrent? That’s all I’m saying: that this isn’t the kind of thing to shrug at. There are plenty of companies lead by grade A people that treat their employees well instead of heartlessly throwing them under the bus.
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    Yes, I'm arguing against you when you say that it is "exceptional", though I agree that it is "abhorrent". > There are plenty of companies lead by grade A people that treat their employees well instead of heartlessly throwing them under the bus. I agree. But I also think companies aren't static things, founders can't stay forever, management always turns over eventually. I believe companies that are permanently incapable of looking for loopholes to reduce staff at the lowest cost to themselves are vanishingly rare. I don't think relying on companies to not do things they are incentivized to do, on the strength of their principles, is an ineffective strategy. But maybe I'm arguing against myself here; if publicizing this kind of behavior results in bad PR that actually breaks through into being a problem for a company, then that changes the incentives, which I do think is good. So yeah, even though I don't think this is new or unusual behavior, shaming it nonetheless could potentially have a positive effect.

sanderjd 3y ago

You don't think employers have pretty much always tried to avoid being required to pay severance and unemployment? If so, that seems to me like an unrealistically rosy view of the past.

cstrahan 3y ago
I’m well aware that bad behavior is a thing. Some driver’s cut each other off in traffic, weaving in and out of lanes. Some customers condescend to service workers, knowing they can’t retaliate without losing their jobs. And some reprobate employers do shitty things like we’re seeing here. Are you really arguing against me when I say that this is exceptionally abhorrent? That’s all I’m saying: that this isn’t the kind of thing to shrug at. There are plenty of companies lead by grade A people that treat their employees well instead of heartlessly throwing them under the bus.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  Yes, I'm arguing against you when you say that it is "exceptional", though I agree that it is "abhorrent". > There are plenty of companies lead by grade A people that treat their employees well instead of heartlessly throwing them under the bus. I agree. But I also think companies aren't static things, founders can't stay forever, management always turns over eventually. I believe companies that are permanently incapable of looking for loopholes to reduce staff at the lowest cost to themselves are vanishingly rare. I don't think relying on companies to not do things they are incentivized to do, on the strength of their principles, is an ineffective strategy. But maybe I'm arguing against myself here; if publicizing this kind of behavior results in bad PR that actually breaks through into being a problem for a company, then that changes the incentives, which I do think is good. So yeah, even though I don't think this is new or unusual behavior, shaming it nonetheless could potentially have a positive effect.