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What a load of nonsense. People sacrifice a lot of personal time to ramp up in a job. This is why she is emotional. Then she was told she was doing well..by he

What a load of nonsense. People sacrifice a lot of personal time to ramp up in a job. This is why she is emotional. Then she was told she was doing well..by her manager. Now her investment is bogus and it sounds like she will not be compensated at all for it? I mean you're advocating she asks for compensation, when they tell her no? Then what? Not sure who you are but you're delusional if you think this is ok. "Go get drunk?", ok

IvyMike 3y ago
Not sure who I am either, but in no way did I say "this is ok". I'm saying there's nothing to be gained to prolonging the talk with two drones from HR. Maybe I'm missing something. What's your best case scenario for how the call goes? What is the biggest potential upside?
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  Companies should be legally required to provide feedback and data if they're firing someone based on "performance" reasons. This isn't about the conversation, it's that your attitude means we should just let corporations off for doing bad / stupid things at scale. This is not going to result in a good society. This company has seen 30%+ year on year growth, there is no need to treat people like this, especially when they're doing so well. This type of thing can be very violating, do you not understand that?
- krainboltgreene 3y ago
  > but in no way did I say "this is ok". Suggesting placid acceptance is a way of implying that it's OK.
- cjbprime 3y ago
  > What is the biggest potential upside? Emotional well-being? Being able to show love to yourself through the knowledge that you stood up for the value of your labor and dedication when it was being unfairly dismissed? Job loss is significantly traumatic, especially in the US where it is linked to the ability to receive medical care. There's a class of response that sounds like "there was no point in doing this, you should just never trust a company, that's what I do". I am not saying you are being that person. But when someone does do that, it gives me the feeling that I am experiencing a much less healthy response than this one.
  - IvyMike 3y ago
    Showing myself love by not wasting time arguing with two human brick walls in HR. I guess based on the comments here, giving the drones who were uninvolved in the decision a piece of your mind makes some people happy. To me nothing else could be more frustrating.
- cstrahan 3y ago
  > What is the biggest potential upside? The upside is an emotional one: not feeling saddened from letting someone easily walk all over you. In the case of this woman's termination, they have lied to her face about her performance, and would presumably also lie to anyone that asked about the cause of her termination (they would say she was fired, when it was a lay off). They probably expected her to just silently take it. By calling them out on their lies, it makes it clear that she knows where she stands, and it makes them look and feel incompetent as they have no concrete evidence to back up their lies, so they must resort to pathetic equivocation. And, since such people often feel that they are in the right if they are met with zero resistance, this also helps them see that they are actually wrong. If that doesn't make sense, consider: what would you do if someone walking by shoulder checked you? Would you do absolutely nothing and keep walking? I would stop them and first ask if that was intentional -- it's possible that was an accident, and we can laugh about it. If it was intentional, I would tell them that I am sorry for their condition: that they feel that the only way to be seen is to bug people in indirect ways (as they are clearly too chickenshit to resort to outright violence) because they are too worthless a person to pay any mind to otherwise. I would wish them luck with that and then go on my way. The only reason I would be silent is if I felt weaker than the other person, so the downside of just taking their abuse is that some core, subconscious part of me would lose respect for myself. I generally find nonviolent confrontation -- when warranted -- to not only be satisfying, but also crucial for how I perceive myself, though I suppose maybe not everyone is wired that way.
  - IvyMike 3y ago
    > If it was intentional, I would tell them that I am sorry for their condition: that they feel that the only way to be seen is to bug people in indirect ways (as they are clearly too chickenshit to resort to outright violence) because they are too worthless a person to pay any mind to otherwise. Me being Don Draper in the elevator.
    - cstrahan 3y ago
      I’m not entirely sure if I follow, but my guess is that the comparison to a fictional character known for being aggressive is intended to (maybe playfully?) tease me. I don’t see it as exceptionally aggressive to call people out on their bullshit. If you have the ability to humble someone being an asshat, they just may learn it’s in their best interest to chill out, which could possibly spare someone else - maybe someone else that doesn’t have the strength to stand up for themselves.
- mlrtime 3y ago
  In general I agree with you, however. Advice that is "go get drunk" to deal with a horrible situation is bad. Maybe this is what she needs for closure and not looking for answers in the bottom of a bottle.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    Theres no closure here though. Searching for it will just lead to disappointment.
  - IvyMike 3y ago
    "Looking for answers in the bottom of a bottle", seriously? In my own experience, drinking with friends at a spontaneous "fuck that job" party after a massive layoff is one of life's great pleasures. To each their own, I guess.

IvyMike 3y ago

Not sure who I am either, but in no way did I say "this is ok". I'm saying there's nothing to be gained to prolonging the talk with two drones from HR. Maybe I'm missing something. What's your best case scenario for how the call goes? What is the biggest potential upside?

ChatGTP 3y ago
Companies should be legally required to provide feedback and data if they're firing someone based on "performance" reasons. This isn't about the conversation, it's that your attitude means we should just let corporations off for doing bad / stupid things at scale. This is not going to result in a good society. This company has seen 30%+ year on year growth, there is no need to treat people like this, especially when they're doing so well. This type of thing can be very violating, do you not understand that?
krainboltgreene 3y ago
> but in no way did I say "this is ok". Suggesting placid acceptance is a way of implying that it's OK.
cjbprime 3y ago
> What is the biggest potential upside? Emotional well-being? Being able to show love to yourself through the knowledge that you stood up for the value of your labor and dedication when it was being unfairly dismissed? Job loss is significantly traumatic, especially in the US where it is linked to the ability to receive medical care. There's a class of response that sounds like "there was no point in doing this, you should just never trust a company, that's what I do". I am not saying you are being that person. But when someone does do that, it gives me the feeling that I am experiencing a much less healthy response than this one.
- IvyMike 3y ago
  Showing myself love by not wasting time arguing with two human brick walls in HR. I guess based on the comments here, giving the drones who were uninvolved in the decision a piece of your mind makes some people happy. To me nothing else could be more frustrating.
cstrahan 3y ago
> What is the biggest potential upside? The upside is an emotional one: not feeling saddened from letting someone easily walk all over you. In the case of this woman's termination, they have lied to her face about her performance, and would presumably also lie to anyone that asked about the cause of her termination (they would say she was fired, when it was a lay off). They probably expected her to just silently take it. By calling them out on their lies, it makes it clear that she knows where she stands, and it makes them look and feel incompetent as they have no concrete evidence to back up their lies, so they must resort to pathetic equivocation. And, since such people often feel that they are in the right if they are met with zero resistance, this also helps them see that they are actually wrong. If that doesn't make sense, consider: what would you do if someone walking by shoulder checked you? Would you do absolutely nothing and keep walking? I would stop them and first ask if that was intentional -- it's possible that was an accident, and we can laugh about it. If it was intentional, I would tell them that I am sorry for their condition: that they feel that the only way to be seen is to bug people in indirect ways (as they are clearly too chickenshit to resort to outright violence) because they are too worthless a person to pay any mind to otherwise. I would wish them luck with that and then go on my way. The only reason I would be silent is if I felt weaker than the other person, so the downside of just taking their abuse is that some core, subconscious part of me would lose respect for myself. I generally find nonviolent confrontation -- when warranted -- to not only be satisfying, but also crucial for how I perceive myself, though I suppose maybe not everyone is wired that way.
- IvyMike 3y ago
  > If it was intentional, I would tell them that I am sorry for their condition: that they feel that the only way to be seen is to bug people in indirect ways (as they are clearly too chickenshit to resort to outright violence) because they are too worthless a person to pay any mind to otherwise. Me being Don Draper in the elevator.
  - cstrahan 3y ago
    I’m not entirely sure if I follow, but my guess is that the comparison to a fictional character known for being aggressive is intended to (maybe playfully?) tease me. I don’t see it as exceptionally aggressive to call people out on their bullshit. If you have the ability to humble someone being an asshat, they just may learn it’s in their best interest to chill out, which could possibly spare someone else - maybe someone else that doesn’t have the strength to stand up for themselves.
mlrtime 3y ago
In general I agree with you, however. Advice that is "go get drunk" to deal with a horrible situation is bad. Maybe this is what she needs for closure and not looking for answers in the bottom of a bottle.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  Theres no closure here though. Searching for it will just lead to disappointment.
- IvyMike 3y ago
  "Looking for answers in the bottom of a bottle", seriously? In my own experience, drinking with friends at a spontaneous "fuck that job" party after a massive layoff is one of life's great pleasures. To each their own, I guess.