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What case? At will employment is a thing. You can terminate people with absolutely no reason if you want, most of the time.

virtuous_sloth 3y ago
America is a pretend country with pretend rights.
bsder 3y ago
In California, you sometimes have to announce layoffs. This strengthens a class action lawsuit that this is a layoff and not a termination for performance. There will be penalties associated with that. You can simply say "We are terminating your employment." However, that generally means that you cannot demand back relocation, bonuses, stocks, etc. and you're going to have to cough up equivalent severance to everybody else--otherwise you're staring at a discrimination lawsuit.
etchalon 3y ago
There are a host of laws regarding termination, even in at will states, especially for companies of Cloudflare's size. Giving an invalid reason that is unsupported by facts is generally a strong place for a lawyer to assert "wrongful termination" and invoke those laws.
- NicoJuicy 3y ago
  That's a false accusation. They gave a reason: performance and the girl mentioned to have 0 sales + 3 opportunities. I wouldn't bet a penny on that lawsuit to win.
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    Then she should’ve had that communicated to her earlier.
    - NicoJuicy 3y ago
      We don't know specifics. If she's doing all the things she should do ( as she mentions), but lacks technical knowledge for a technical product. Than if she asks feedback, she'll get points for the effort. But concerning technical knowledge, there's not much to do in a short period to get an employee profitable in a lot of cases. Definitely with a product like Cloudflare. And saying you lack basic knowledge, is very hard to do/fix. Because the knowledge is not solely Cloudflare related. It's development, website, networking, ... There's a difficult gray area on what training someone needs for technical things. Even if the employee is motivated. They won't be profitable within a year. Where to start? Where does it end?
  - etchalon 3y ago
    They gave a reason. That doesn't mean the facts supported that reason. The employee didn't believe they did. Not closing a deal in your first month of sales is not exactly unheard of or even uncommon. Either way, WT lawsuits don't generally "win or lose". They settle.
    - NicoJuicy 3y ago
      The facts support the reason ( 0 sales), although there are nuances ( timeframe - 4,5 months) There's also a lot of missing context. - what happened in those 3 opportunities that she tried to close a deal - perhaps she's missing a technical background to actually close a deal, since Cloudflare is a very technical product No one from us knows the details, so it's speculation. 4,5 months is still a bit fast though. Getting a new employee up to speed takes 6 months in a lot of cases. But mostly you know it sooner when it wouldn't work out.
      - etchalon 3y ago
        You went from "the facts supported the reason" to "we don't have all the facts necessary to know if the facts supported the reason." to "from the facts we know, the reason seems sus."
        NicoJuicy 3y ago
        ? You don't need to know everything, to acknowledge that 0 sales supports a bad performance review. Here's additionally info that you didn't knew: https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-earnings-review/ https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-ea... - profitability 100 people were fired and replaced, in the hope to get less underperforming sales people. => Facts support this situation and it's consistent to what happened in may last year too. This is a follow up with the people that were layed off for underperforming. To see if they weren't...
mangosteenjuice 3y ago
Yeah, you can terminate them with absolutely no reason, and then get sued. Read up on how employment laws actually work. There are all sorts of factors you aren't considering, which play into the legal realm at hand here. Factors like employee count. Yes, even in at-will states. You think that major corporations do PIPs and pay severances out of kindness?
tracker1 3y ago
Rules for layoffs vary greatly from state to state.
blitzar 3y ago
> At will employment is a thing. You can terminate people with absolutely no reason if you want, most of the time. In which case fire them with no reason. If however you waive that choice and offer a specific reason then you probably should make the chosen reason true unless you want to be sued for wrongful dismissal.
- epolanski 3y ago
  You see? Damn if you do, damn if you don't. It's then better to just fire and give no motivation whatsoever.
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    Except this reason was most likely a fabrication due to the fact that they never communicated performance issues in the past. Cloudflare lied. It’s plain and simple.
    - epolanski 3y ago
      Or maybe they did and she didn't tell in the TikToks? Don't believe everything you see on the internet. Be smarter than that, form opinions based on as many facts as possible, not only partial, biased, information.
      - aaomidi 3y ago
        I have more reason to believe this person than I do cloudflare.
        epolanski 3y ago
        Practice being skeptical.
        aaomidi 3y ago
        You should probably do the same thing. Given the information, and given what I know about Cloudflare’s internals and how they have behaved, and given how Matthew Prince has been in the past. It is unreasonable to think Cloudflare is in the right here.
op00to 3y ago
If you give a reason, it must be true. Otherwise it opens you up to "well, what was the real reason then?"

virtuous_sloth 3y ago

America is a pretend country with pretend rights.

bsder 3y ago

In California, you sometimes have to announce layoffs. This strengthens a class action lawsuit that this is a layoff and not a termination for performance. There will be penalties associated with that. You can simply say "We are terminating your employment." However, that generally means that you cannot demand back relocation, bonuses, stocks, etc. and you're going to have to cough up equivalent severance to everybody else--otherwise you're staring at a discrimination lawsuit.

etchalon 3y ago

There are a host of laws regarding termination, even in at will states, especially for companies of Cloudflare's size. Giving an invalid reason that is unsupported by facts is generally a strong place for a lawyer to assert "wrongful termination" and invoke those laws.

NicoJuicy 3y ago
That's a false accusation. They gave a reason: performance and the girl mentioned to have 0 sales + 3 opportunities. I wouldn't bet a penny on that lawsuit to win.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  Then she should’ve had that communicated to her earlier.
  - NicoJuicy 3y ago
    We don't know specifics. If she's doing all the things she should do ( as she mentions), but lacks technical knowledge for a technical product. Than if she asks feedback, she'll get points for the effort. But concerning technical knowledge, there's not much to do in a short period to get an employee profitable in a lot of cases. Definitely with a product like Cloudflare. And saying you lack basic knowledge, is very hard to do/fix. Because the knowledge is not solely Cloudflare related. It's development, website, networking, ... There's a difficult gray area on what training someone needs for technical things. Even if the employee is motivated. They won't be profitable within a year. Where to start? Where does it end?
- etchalon 3y ago
  They gave a reason. That doesn't mean the facts supported that reason. The employee didn't believe they did. Not closing a deal in your first month of sales is not exactly unheard of or even uncommon. Either way, WT lawsuits don't generally "win or lose". They settle.
  - NicoJuicy 3y ago
    The facts support the reason ( 0 sales), although there are nuances ( timeframe - 4,5 months) There's also a lot of missing context. - what happened in those 3 opportunities that she tried to close a deal - perhaps she's missing a technical background to actually close a deal, since Cloudflare is a very technical product No one from us knows the details, so it's speculation. 4,5 months is still a bit fast though. Getting a new employee up to speed takes 6 months in a lot of cases. But mostly you know it sooner when it wouldn't work out.
    - etchalon 3y ago
      You went from "the facts supported the reason" to "we don't have all the facts necessary to know if the facts supported the reason." to "from the facts we know, the reason seems sus."
      - NicoJuicy 3y ago
        ? You don't need to know everything, to acknowledge that 0 sales supports a bad performance review. Here's additionally info that you didn't knew: https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-earnings-review/ https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-ea... - profitability 100 people were fired and replaced, in the hope to get less underperforming sales people. => Facts support this situation and it's consistent to what happened in may last year too. This is a follow up with the people that were layed off for underperforming. To see if they weren't...

mangosteenjuice 3y ago

Yeah, you can terminate them with absolutely no reason, and then get sued. Read up on how employment laws actually work. There are all sorts of factors you aren't considering, which play into the legal realm at hand here. Factors like employee count. Yes, even in at-will states. You think that major corporations do PIPs and pay severances out of kindness?

tracker1 3y ago

Rules for layoffs vary greatly from state to state.

blitzar 3y ago

> At will employment is a thing. You can terminate people with absolutely no reason if you want, most of the time. In which case fire them with no reason. If however you waive that choice and offer a specific reason then you probably should make the chosen reason true unless you want to be sued for wrongful dismissal.

epolanski 3y ago
You see? Damn if you do, damn if you don't. It's then better to just fire and give no motivation whatsoever.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  Except this reason was most likely a fabrication due to the fact that they never communicated performance issues in the past. Cloudflare lied. It’s plain and simple.
  - epolanski 3y ago
    Or maybe they did and she didn't tell in the TikToks? Don't believe everything you see on the internet. Be smarter than that, form opinions based on as many facts as possible, not only partial, biased, information.
    - aaomidi 3y ago
      I have more reason to believe this person than I do cloudflare.
      - epolanski 3y ago
        Practice being skeptical.
        aaomidi 3y ago
        You should probably do the same thing. Given the information, and given what I know about Cloudflare’s internals and how they have behaved, and given how Matthew Prince has been in the past. It is unreasonable to think Cloudflare is in the right here.

op00to 3y ago

If you give a reason, it must be true. Otherwise it opens you up to "well, what was the real reason then?"