3 ms·

I think there's a huge difference between the ideals of what a union can offer, and the practice of entrenched unions in some specific industries, particularly

I think there's a huge difference between the ideals of what a union can offer, and the practice of entrenched unions in some specific industries, particularly in the US. As a well paid software engineer who wants to work with high performing colleagues, nothing my union has said has suggested they aren't supportive of this. They are about holding companies to account, not entrenching poor performers or normalising salaries around some middle ground. Bear in mind also that there has been a near century long war of propaganda against the idea of unions. There's a lot of negative connotation built up in media, discourse, expectations, etc.

monero-xmr 3y ago
The specific criticism I heard my friend rant about was a colleague who did very little because they felt slighted, and they could never be fired for anything really, so because he wanted to move on with his life he just did all that other guys’ work.
- danpalmer 3y ago
  I have heard this criticism. I've also heard from my union that they know there is that image, and that's not a culture they support or want to create, and that they want to promote an effective and fair performance-based team environment. Fundamentally, a union for software engineers is just not going to work the same as a union for, say, manufacturing. There's a lot that mostly doesn't apply to us like physical safety, but a lot more that does like whistleblowing.
  - monero-xmr 3y ago
    Whistleblowing is an extreme edge case. What about simply a lazy non-performer? Can they still be fired? Is there just additional friction?
    - theshrike79 3y ago
      I live in a country where unions are a de-facto standard. They actually negotiate with the government for stuff. Firing "lazy non-performers" is easy, you just follow the steps. 1) warning about performance, in written form with someone present 2) second warning 3) fired. The American way where a boss can just come in and say "you're fired, gather your things and security will escort you out" will never fly here. The process is there to make sure the reason for firing is explicitly stated and understood by both sides. It also gives some safeguards that just a personality conflict between people can't be used to fire someone, there has to be a proper reason beyond "I don't like your face" Companies can also fire people when they hit a downturn, but there's a catch. If they claim it's for "economic reasons" (there's a specific turn of phrase they need to use here that doesn't translate) they then need to primarily re-hire the people who they fired if they start hiring for the same positions again.
- krainboltgreene 3y ago
  If my choice is between being let go for any reason under the sun, including the reasons that aren't real and also being told I'm bad or having a lazy coworker I know what I'll take.
- lamontcg 3y ago
  And I raise you all the useless people I've seen promoted/hired into management positions in non-union shops.

monero-xmr 3y ago

The specific criticism I heard my friend rant about was a colleague who did very little because they felt slighted, and they could never be fired for anything really, so because he wanted to move on with his life he just did all that other guys’ work.

danpalmer 3y ago
I have heard this criticism. I've also heard from my union that they know there is that image, and that's not a culture they support or want to create, and that they want to promote an effective and fair performance-based team environment. Fundamentally, a union for software engineers is just not going to work the same as a union for, say, manufacturing. There's a lot that mostly doesn't apply to us like physical safety, but a lot more that does like whistleblowing.
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  Whistleblowing is an extreme edge case. What about simply a lazy non-performer? Can they still be fired? Is there just additional friction?
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    I live in a country where unions are a de-facto standard. They actually negotiate with the government for stuff. Firing "lazy non-performers" is easy, you just follow the steps. 1) warning about performance, in written form with someone present 2) second warning 3) fired. The American way where a boss can just come in and say "you're fired, gather your things and security will escort you out" will never fly here. The process is there to make sure the reason for firing is explicitly stated and understood by both sides. It also gives some safeguards that just a personality conflict between people can't be used to fire someone, there has to be a proper reason beyond "I don't like your face" Companies can also fire people when they hit a downturn, but there's a catch. If they claim it's for "economic reasons" (there's a specific turn of phrase they need to use here that doesn't translate) they then need to primarily re-hire the people who they fired if they start hiring for the same positions again.
krainboltgreene 3y ago
If my choice is between being let go for any reason under the sun, including the reasons that aren't real and also being told I'm bad or having a lazy coworker I know what I'll take.
lamontcg 3y ago
And I raise you all the useless people I've seen promoted/hired into management positions in non-union shops.