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I went with the Apple HomeKit compatible camp, because it does indeed all work locally across your local LAN without a network connection - its not foolproof, b

by Aloha 3y ago

I went with the Apple HomeKit compatible camp, because it does indeed all work locally across your local LAN without a network connection - its not foolproof, but it mostly just works, and works well at that - and more importantly works when the internet is out. The biggest thing with Apple is they get that houses have more than one person living in them, and provided everyone has an Apple device, it all just works.

faeriechangling 3y ago
I do not have any faith in Alexa OR Google home, despite Amazon on paper being a juggernaut of market share and Google being a juggernaut of AI. How they are fundamentally architected is bad. Cloud-based services that run over a single WAN connection? That basically guarantees Google Home and Alexa are bound to be only ever used for frivolous things you don't really need because the smart assistants are fundamentally unreliable. Initially I didn't think this was THAT big of a deal, but the more experience I got with smart homes the more I'm thinking the ecosystem's are doomed to plateau while Homekit keeps trucking past them since its reliability problems are not as severe. Amazon and Google are building castles on sand.
- kccqzy 3y ago
  Before Google bought Nest, I even remember Nest made sure their products could all communicate with each other on the local network without the Internet. Nest devices set up a local network for themselves in the IPv6 ULA range. IPv6 addresses are so plentiful that a made-up ULA network won't cause any problems. I thought that was a pretty clever technique to ensure falling back to offline use. It did generate some questions on various online forums when people discuss Nest home devices were sending out IPv6 RAs. I guess but cannot confirm that Google has continued this practice. It didn't seem like the problems you mention exist, unless Google did something stupid and disabled all of this perfectly working functionality.
  - faeriechangling 3y ago
    Besides what you mentioned there’s the local home SDK. Google is still using the actual Nest app and I’m pretty sure what you mentioned works through that app. There’s also matter now for local control. The thing is that there’s this mishmash because unlike Apple they weren’t local first across the board from the get go. In any case, I’m holding out for a HomePod mini refresh because if they throw a s9 chip in there it’s going to be able to do basic voice recognition offline Maybe matter can save Alexa/Google home and I’m too pessimistic but I don’t like how they work now.
rawgabbit 3y ago
Can you please elaborate? It works when the internet is down?
- CharlesW 3y ago
  Yes, if you have a home hub (an Apple TV or a HomePod¹). https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT207057 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT207057 Homebridge is a great addition to a HomeKit setup, too. https://homebridge.io/ https://homebridge.io/ ¹ EDIT: Removed iPad mention, since as @js2 notes, "iPad as a home hub" support is being deprecated.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    That's interesting. I have not looked into using the Apple ecosystem, but just assumed it was all centered around the HomePod. Not needing the Homepod now makes me more interested
    - js2 3y ago
      You need an AppleTV or HomePod to act as the hub. Without that, you get no automation nor ability to control devices from outside your home. An AppleTV is also needed for Thread support. Using an iPad for a hub is deprecated and not supported in the new architecture. You can of course use HomeKit devices with Home Assistant in both directions. HA can obviously serve as the automation hub for HK devices ("accessories" in HK parlance) and HA can expose itself to HK so you can control HA devices through an iPhone, iPad or Mac.
      - CharlesW 3y ago
        > An AppleTV is also needed for Thread support. Or a HomePod mini, or a 2nd gen HomePod, or a supported 3rd-party device that can act as a Thread border router.
        js2 3y ago
        Ah, thanks for the correction on that. Maybe plenty of folks are happy with HomePods for their hub but all the complaints I read are also folks using HomePods. It's hard to know whether they have spotty WiFi or if HomePods are just inherently less reliable hubs. I will say that having my wired AppleTV act as a hub, I've had no trouble at all. I have maybe 50 accessories and a bunch of automations, some fairly complex. e.g. my garage door automatically opens for me as I near my home as long as my iPhone is in CarPlay mode.
js2 3y ago
I've been pretty happy with HK augmented by Homebridge. However, I'd go out of my mind if it weren't for the Controller for HomeKit app[^1] to allow backup and restore, and it's still not perfect due to Apple restrictions on how third-party apps are allowed to interact with HK. Controller also is the only way to access more advanced automation options that are impossible to do through the Home app. Just the other day after a power outage, three Nanoleaf bulbs in my home refused to rejoin HK and I had to repair them. That meant deleting them from HK first. Fortunately I was able to use Controller to restore most of the scenes/automations that involved those bulbs. But it was tedious and didn't restore everything. At this point I'm seriously considering switching to Home Assistant to act as my HK automation hub. That would give me the best of everything: local control, HA for programming, and using my Apple devices to turn things on and off. [^1]: https://controllerforhomekit.com/ https://controllerforhomekit.com/
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > and it's still not perfect due to Apple restrictions on how third-party apps are allowed to interact with HK. And other Apple restrictions. I've got a lot of stuff looking really good with this combo. And then I added a Brilliant (https://www.brilliant.tech/home?tab=system https://www.brilliant.tech/home?tab=system) Smart "Outlet", particularly for my living room, which has six can Hue lights, and a lot of ambient stuff around the TV - it's great for driving a lot of scenes, daylight, evening warmth, media (where the front row of cans are off), etc. But it could also so a lot more that would be nice (Christmas lights, which are off a smart switch etc.) - except Apple doesn't allow external devices to initiate HomeKit actions. So a lot of potential usability is lost.
j45 3y ago
This is very true. Our place came with an Ecobee thermometer. I threw it up on Homekit and my partner had it on their watch and phone instantly. Too easy.
gnicholas 3y ago
Word to the wise: you have to have a HomePod or Apple TV to do anything other than control devices when you are home, with no automations. I couldn't even install smart light bulbs without a hub. Also, you can't share with your spouse/family (so they can control lights) without a hub.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

by Aloha 3y ago

faeriechangling 3y ago

I do not have any faith in Alexa OR Google home, despite Amazon on paper being a juggernaut of market share and Google being a juggernaut of AI. How they are fundamentally architected is bad. Cloud-based services that run over a single WAN connection? That basically guarantees Google Home and Alexa are bound to be only ever used for frivolous things you don't really need because the smart assistants are fundamentally unreliable. Initially I didn't think this was THAT big of a deal, but the more experience I got with smart homes the more I'm thinking the ecosystem's are doomed to plateau while Homekit keeps trucking past them since its reliability problems are not as severe. Amazon and Google are building castles on sand.

kccqzy 3y ago
Before Google bought Nest, I even remember Nest made sure their products could all communicate with each other on the local network without the Internet. Nest devices set up a local network for themselves in the IPv6 ULA range. IPv6 addresses are so plentiful that a made-up ULA network won't cause any problems. I thought that was a pretty clever technique to ensure falling back to offline use. It did generate some questions on various online forums when people discuss Nest home devices were sending out IPv6 RAs. I guess but cannot confirm that Google has continued this practice. It didn't seem like the problems you mention exist, unless Google did something stupid and disabled all of this perfectly working functionality.
- faeriechangling 3y ago
  Besides what you mentioned there’s the local home SDK. Google is still using the actual Nest app and I’m pretty sure what you mentioned works through that app. There’s also matter now for local control. The thing is that there’s this mishmash because unlike Apple they weren’t local first across the board from the get go. In any case, I’m holding out for a HomePod mini refresh because if they throw a s9 chip in there it’s going to be able to do basic voice recognition offline Maybe matter can save Alexa/Google home and I’m too pessimistic but I don’t like how they work now.

rawgabbit 3y ago

Can you please elaborate? It works when the internet is down?

CharlesW 3y ago
Yes, if you have a home hub (an Apple TV or a HomePod¹). https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT207057 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT207057 Homebridge is a great addition to a HomeKit setup, too. https://homebridge.io/ https://homebridge.io/ ¹ EDIT: Removed iPad mention, since as @js2 notes, "iPad as a home hub" support is being deprecated.
- dylan604 3y ago
  That's interesting. I have not looked into using the Apple ecosystem, but just assumed it was all centered around the HomePod. Not needing the Homepod now makes me more interested
  - js2 3y ago
    You need an AppleTV or HomePod to act as the hub. Without that, you get no automation nor ability to control devices from outside your home. An AppleTV is also needed for Thread support. Using an iPad for a hub is deprecated and not supported in the new architecture. You can of course use HomeKit devices with Home Assistant in both directions. HA can obviously serve as the automation hub for HK devices ("accessories" in HK parlance) and HA can expose itself to HK so you can control HA devices through an iPhone, iPad or Mac.
    - CharlesW 3y ago
      > An AppleTV is also needed for Thread support. Or a HomePod mini, or a 2nd gen HomePod, or a supported 3rd-party device that can act as a Thread border router.
      - js2 3y ago
        Ah, thanks for the correction on that. Maybe plenty of folks are happy with HomePods for their hub but all the complaints I read are also folks using HomePods. It's hard to know whether they have spotty WiFi or if HomePods are just inherently less reliable hubs. I will say that having my wired AppleTV act as a hub, I've had no trouble at all. I have maybe 50 accessories and a bunch of automations, some fairly complex. e.g. my garage door automatically opens for me as I near my home as long as my iPhone is in CarPlay mode.

js2 3y ago

I've been pretty happy with HK augmented by Homebridge. However, I'd go out of my mind if it weren't for the Controller for HomeKit app[^1] to allow backup and restore, and it's still not perfect due to Apple restrictions on how third-party apps are allowed to interact with HK. Controller also is the only way to access more advanced automation options that are impossible to do through the Home app. Just the other day after a power outage, three Nanoleaf bulbs in my home refused to rejoin HK and I had to repair them. That meant deleting them from HK first. Fortunately I was able to use Controller to restore most of the scenes/automations that involved those bulbs. But it was tedious and didn't restore everything. At this point I'm seriously considering switching to Home Assistant to act as my HK automation hub. That would give me the best of everything: local control, HA for programming, and using my Apple devices to turn things on and off. [^1]: https://controllerforhomekit.com/ https://controllerforhomekit.com/

FireBeyond 3y ago
> and it's still not perfect due to Apple restrictions on how third-party apps are allowed to interact with HK. And other Apple restrictions. I've got a lot of stuff looking really good with this combo. And then I added a Brilliant (https://www.brilliant.tech/home?tab=system https://www.brilliant.tech/home?tab=system) Smart "Outlet", particularly for my living room, which has six can Hue lights, and a lot of ambient stuff around the TV - it's great for driving a lot of scenes, daylight, evening warmth, media (where the front row of cans are off), etc. But it could also so a lot more that would be nice (Christmas lights, which are off a smart switch etc.) - except Apple doesn't allow external devices to initiate HomeKit actions. So a lot of potential usability is lost.

j45 3y ago

This is very true. Our place came with an Ecobee thermometer. I threw it up on Homekit and my partner had it on their watch and phone instantly. Too easy.

gnicholas 3y ago

Word to the wise: you have to have a HomePod or Apple TV to do anything other than control devices when you are home, with no automations. I couldn't even install smart light bulbs without a hub. Also, you can't share with your spouse/family (so they can control lights) without a hub.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]