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"the Earth goes around the sun, so this is not what you see with your own eyes" is not an argument. The declared aim is to make Gaza unlivable, the actions matc

"the Earth goes around the sun, so this is not what you see with your own eyes" is not an argument. The declared aim is to make Gaza unlivable, the actions match it. Including just turning off water, talking about human animals. And the destruction is not "regrettable", it's a despicable atrocity. And then there is the IDF just going into civilian buildings, villages, rigging them up and blowing them up, singing about moving into Gaza and all that. The idea that it's only about military targets does not hold a drop of water.

richardfeynman 3y ago
The declared aim is to make Gaza unlivable? Really? Israel has stated hundreds if not thousands of times that he declared aim is to (1) destroy hamas's ability to wage war; (2) return the hostages; and (3) prevent such an attack from recurring. Yes, there have been particular government officials who've said they want to make Gaza unlivable, just as there are crazies in the US congress and senate who say things like we should nuke the middle east. In terms of the earth going around the sun, the point I was trying to make is that at first glance it does look like the sun goes around the earth, just as at first glance it looks like Israel is trying to reduce Gaza to rubble, but after careful observation and adherence to scientific thinking we learn that the earth goes around the sun -- and that Israel is not carpet bombing gaza.
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  Under the Genocide convention, Israel is obliged to prohibit and prosecute such speech. US senators aren't the standard, just like Hamas is not the standard. Besides one US senators hardly being the equivalent of hundreds of public figures, from the head of state to security and education minister, to army generals and so on. They're crazies alright, but they're not fringe, they're in charge. Those who call it out get viciously attacked, such as Ofer Cassif or Israel Frey ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMKyH4jCnTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMKyH4jCnTE ) And the rhetoric matches the actions of the IDF. It's not "just" the bombing, it's also just blowing up whole villages demolition style, before/after making selfies and TikToks making fun of it. Just turning off water, plowing up the asphalts of streets, etc. etc.
  - richardfeynman 3y ago
    It is absolutely 100% mainstream, repeated in almost every speech by Israeli politicians at a ratio of maybe 100:1 that the war goals are what I stated versus what you concocted. I understand it's tough for you to know this since you don't speak hebrew and may not follow Israeli media, but I can assure you--assure you as someone who has followed this topic for 20 years, criticized the Israeli government for 20 years, marched with free palestine-- that you're dead wrong in your assessment. Also, not sure how much of an expert you are in the Genocide convention, but Israel allows free speech and like the United States it does not prosecute legislators for saying wild things. There is a massive gulf between your confidence and knowledge.
    - runarberg 3y ago
      (1) Hamas retains the ability fire rockets over to Israel despite 70% of Gaza city being destroyed or damaged. (2) The USA consistently vetoes UN resolutions which would bring back the hostages. So (3) is obviously valued higher then the lives of the hostages. (3) Do you honestly believe this is achievable via militaristic means? Israels stated goals—if we ignore those who say the goal is genocide—seem rather vague and/or unachievable. And in the case of (2) Israel (or rather the USA) is self sabotaging. No, I choose to believe the officials who claim ethnic cleansing is the goal. The reality from the ground seems to support their narrative.
      - richardfeynman 3y ago
        1. This is true, and it's unfortunate that Hamas is firing rockets from safe zones. This makes Israel's job substantially more difficult. But what you're ignoring is that Hamas's military abilities have been substantially reduced, the number of rockets being fired has dwindled, and they are being fired from fewer places. Hamas has all but been displaced from Northern Gaza and Khan Younis will fall probably by the end of the month. 2. Israel will not accept a future in which Hamas, which has vowed to repeat October 7, remains in power. So any resolution that calls for a ceasefire (meaning Israel puts down its weapons but Hamas doesn't) without a return of hostages will not pass muster. 3. Yes, I do believe it is possible to achieve with military means, and moreover I believe it's impossible to achieve without military means. And I believe it already has been achieved in Northern Gaza. I'm not saying Hamas will go away completely, just as Nazism didn't go away completely, but just as the allies crushed the Nazis, Israel can crush Hamas. I think it's unlikely for Israel to get many more hostages back, but I'm glad it's trying. Interesting to me that you believe the officials who claim ethnic cleansing is the goal rather than the 100x more numerous officials, including the head of the IDF and Netanyahu, who say the three goals are what I stated. Also, there is no ethnic cleansing of Palestinians on the ground. The net reduction in the Palestinian population since the start of the war has been roughly 6k people if you believe Hamas's death toll claims (22k deaths, 16k births).

richardfeynman 3y ago

The declared aim is to make Gaza unlivable? Really? Israel has stated hundreds if not thousands of times that he declared aim is to (1) destroy hamas's ability to wage war; (2) return the hostages; and (3) prevent such an attack from recurring. Yes, there have been particular government officials who've said they want to make Gaza unlivable, just as there are crazies in the US congress and senate who say things like we should nuke the middle east. In terms of the earth going around the sun, the point I was trying to make is that at first glance it does look like the sun goes around the earth, just as at first glance it looks like Israel is trying to reduce Gaza to rubble, but after careful observation and adherence to scientific thinking we learn that the earth goes around the sun -- and that Israel is not carpet bombing gaza.

johnnyworker 3y ago
Under the Genocide convention, Israel is obliged to prohibit and prosecute such speech. US senators aren't the standard, just like Hamas is not the standard. Besides one US senators hardly being the equivalent of hundreds of public figures, from the head of state to security and education minister, to army generals and so on. They're crazies alright, but they're not fringe, they're in charge. Those who call it out get viciously attacked, such as Ofer Cassif or Israel Frey ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMKyH4jCnTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMKyH4jCnTE ) And the rhetoric matches the actions of the IDF. It's not "just" the bombing, it's also just blowing up whole villages demolition style, before/after making selfies and TikToks making fun of it. Just turning off water, plowing up the asphalts of streets, etc. etc.
- richardfeynman 3y ago
  It is absolutely 100% mainstream, repeated in almost every speech by Israeli politicians at a ratio of maybe 100:1 that the war goals are what I stated versus what you concocted. I understand it's tough for you to know this since you don't speak hebrew and may not follow Israeli media, but I can assure you--assure you as someone who has followed this topic for 20 years, criticized the Israeli government for 20 years, marched with free palestine-- that you're dead wrong in your assessment. Also, not sure how much of an expert you are in the Genocide convention, but Israel allows free speech and like the United States it does not prosecute legislators for saying wild things. There is a massive gulf between your confidence and knowledge.
  - runarberg 3y ago
    (1) Hamas retains the ability fire rockets over to Israel despite 70% of Gaza city being destroyed or damaged. (2) The USA consistently vetoes UN resolutions which would bring back the hostages. So (3) is obviously valued higher then the lives of the hostages. (3) Do you honestly believe this is achievable via militaristic means? Israels stated goals—if we ignore those who say the goal is genocide—seem rather vague and/or unachievable. And in the case of (2) Israel (or rather the USA) is self sabotaging. No, I choose to believe the officials who claim ethnic cleansing is the goal. The reality from the ground seems to support their narrative.
    - richardfeynman 3y ago
      1. This is true, and it's unfortunate that Hamas is firing rockets from safe zones. This makes Israel's job substantially more difficult. But what you're ignoring is that Hamas's military abilities have been substantially reduced, the number of rockets being fired has dwindled, and they are being fired from fewer places. Hamas has all but been displaced from Northern Gaza and Khan Younis will fall probably by the end of the month. 2. Israel will not accept a future in which Hamas, which has vowed to repeat October 7, remains in power. So any resolution that calls for a ceasefire (meaning Israel puts down its weapons but Hamas doesn't) without a return of hostages will not pass muster. 3. Yes, I do believe it is possible to achieve with military means, and moreover I believe it's impossible to achieve without military means. And I believe it already has been achieved in Northern Gaza. I'm not saying Hamas will go away completely, just as Nazism didn't go away completely, but just as the allies crushed the Nazis, Israel can crush Hamas. I think it's unlikely for Israel to get many more hostages back, but I'm glad it's trying. Interesting to me that you believe the officials who claim ethnic cleansing is the goal rather than the 100x more numerous officials, including the head of the IDF and Netanyahu, who say the three goals are what I stated. Also, there is no ethnic cleansing of Palestinians on the ground. The net reduction in the Palestinian population since the start of the war has been roughly 6k people if you believe Hamas's death toll claims (22k deaths, 16k births).