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> And I never said video games can't handle text. I said it can't handle at the same level as the OS or browser. The actual metric is “can they handle text at

> And I never said video games can't handle text. I said it can't handle at the same level as the OS or browser. The actual metric is “can they handle text at a sufficient level”. I’m inclined to say yes. > Due to the rendering model of game engines, you won't be able to leverage 40+ years of OS development and 30+ years of browser development. You gotta restart from scratch. Oh baby don’t threaten me with a good time. Web browsers are kinda terrible at UX. Native mobile apps are sooo much better than web. > There are exactly zero game engines or game engine libraries currently that provide the automatic accessibility at the level of something like Electron. This is something else that must be rebuilt from scratch. It’s weird that you say “nothing to level of electron and therefore must start from scratch”. As if there aren’t already libraries and utilities to build off of. At the end of the day electron “just” uses the documented Windows API! It’s not a trivial project. But it’s hardly insurmountable.

whstl 3y ago
Hmmm, I don't know what's this about "actual metric". Is it "sufficient" for simple projects? Sure. Is it as good as Electron in terms of UX, and look/feel? No, it's not even close. Because Electron is doing native rendering. Let me try to explain a different way: - You are saying that native is better. Sure. UX is better, look and feel is better, rendering, accessibility (in most cases), consistency, configurability. - Electron leverages native for a lot of functionality, so it is able to provide good quality. With light styling and semantic tags, it will use a lot of native functionality and will look exactly like the OS. - Game engines can't use native to the extent that Electron does, because the rendering model is fundamentally different (as explained in one of the links), so it must use libraries that don't exactly have the look/feel/quality of native and must simulate it. It doesn't get as far from native than that. > It’s weird that you say “nothing to level of electron and therefore must start from scratch”. But this is true. There is currently nothing close to Electron accessibility in the game world. I'm not talking about base-level accessibility. Check the kind of accessibility provided by browser engines and operating systems, and you'll see it is a lot of work already cut out for developers. Are there libraries? Of course there are, I never disputed that. I actually managed to sneak a few commits and opened a few issues in AccessKit, which is a Rust accessibility library that can be integrated with game engines. But it's still early days compared to what Electron can do. Browser accessibility is actually really great, and it's virtually automatic for developers. I would say that only Apple has as good/simple accessibility as browsers. Check these posts to see the opinion of a Microsoft alumnus that specializes in accessibility: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27338151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27338151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24188387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24188387
- forrestthewoods 3y ago
  I will grant you that Accessibility is not handled well. But I don’t find any of the other arguments compelling.
  - whstl 3y ago
    Sure. But there's no argument here. Me and others are merely answering your questions. You said above "I'm legitimately asking. I don't know." I'm assuming this was said in good faith.
    - forrestthewoods 3y ago
      That’s fair. It was good faith. Thanks for engaging. I’ll leave it at that.

whstl 3y ago

Hmmm, I don't know what's this about "actual metric". Is it "sufficient" for simple projects? Sure. Is it as good as Electron in terms of UX, and look/feel? No, it's not even close. Because Electron is doing native rendering. Let me try to explain a different way: - You are saying that native is better. Sure. UX is better, look and feel is better, rendering, accessibility (in most cases), consistency, configurability. - Electron leverages native for a lot of functionality, so it is able to provide good quality. With light styling and semantic tags, it will use a lot of native functionality and will look exactly like the OS. - Game engines can't use native to the extent that Electron does, because the rendering model is fundamentally different (as explained in one of the links), so it must use libraries that don't exactly have the look/feel/quality of native and must simulate it. It doesn't get as far from native than that. > It’s weird that you say “nothing to level of electron and therefore must start from scratch”. But this is true. There is currently nothing close to Electron accessibility in the game world. I'm not talking about base-level accessibility. Check the kind of accessibility provided by browser engines and operating systems, and you'll see it is a lot of work already cut out for developers. Are there libraries? Of course there are, I never disputed that. I actually managed to sneak a few commits and opened a few issues in AccessKit, which is a Rust accessibility library that can be integrated with game engines. But it's still early days compared to what Electron can do. Browser accessibility is actually really great, and it's virtually automatic for developers. I would say that only Apple has as good/simple accessibility as browsers. Check these posts to see the opinion of a Microsoft alumnus that specializes in accessibility: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27338151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27338151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24188387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24188387

forrestthewoods 3y ago
I will grant you that Accessibility is not handled well. But I don’t find any of the other arguments compelling.
- whstl 3y ago
  Sure. But there's no argument here. Me and others are merely answering your questions. You said above "I'm legitimately asking. I don't know." I'm assuming this was said in good faith.
  - forrestthewoods 3y ago
    That’s fair. It was good faith. Thanks for engaging. I’ll leave it at that.