4 ms·

Companies structure their relationships with Microsoft in detailed contracts, which specify what data Microsoft’s corporate staff can access, and why, and what

Companies structure their relationships with Microsoft in detailed contracts, which specify what data Microsoft’s corporate staff can access, and why, and what the penalties are for violating the contract. These contracts are extremely lucrative and extremely detailed. Microsoft applies a business analysis to each one of them. If they determine it’s more financially beneficial to abide by the contract, they will. There is zero “blind trust” involved, on either side. Where there is trust, it has been earned. And it can be burned.

autoexec 3y ago
Contracts are great, and may even provide for some type of compensation or remedy if you know and you could prove that Microsoft was using the data they collect against their own customers, but good luck knowing/proving that. If Microsoft uses the data they have to come up with competing products, or to time the release of their competing products, or to decide which stocks to buy or short, or to decide which companies to partner with or avoid, or which of your employees they should try to attract, or even to sell or leak privileged information to your competitors you'd never know about any of that without a whistleblower at Microsoft saying something, and that person's income and very comfortable lifestyle depends on them keeping their mouth shut. A whistleblower may also risk legal consequences themself if they ever come forward. Risking themselves, their future, and their family is asking a lot which is why whistleblowers are extremely rare. That's part of the problem with surveillance capitalism. All the spying being done is to collect massive amounts of extremely valuable data, but very little of that data is used transparently. You simply can never know how the data being collected about you will be used against you, you can just be sure that it will be. The reason companies are investing huge amounts of resources into collecting, storing, and analyzing every single scrap of data they can get their hands on is because doing so is making them money hand over fist. I doesn't matter if it's your data, or your company's data, they'll be using it in any and every way possible if they even suspect that doing so will give them an advantage or make them more money and their gains will almost always be at your expense.
- snowwrestler 3y ago
  Let's say Boeing is a Microsoft customer. What is Microsoft going to do, read all of Boeing's emails and then start manufacturing airliners and spacecraft? I think for most companies it would not be that hard to tell if Microsoft stole their data and set up a directly competing line of business.
  - lmm 3y ago
    If you can see Boeing's emails to Slack / Salesforce / AWS / ..., you know exactly what new features to build into Teams / Azure / etc., and exactly when they might be most receptive to a sales pitch. MS may not be in the aeroplane business but they're in a lot of businesses.
    - snowwrestler 3y ago
      So the idea is that MS would violate all their largest existing contracts, potentially committing criminal fraud along the way, in order to gain some marginal advantage in securing a few additional contracts later on? Does that sound like a sustainable business strategy?
      - autoexec 3y ago
        Companies routinely break laws when they think they'll increase their profits. Companies will even knowingly and willingly kill people, commit mass poisonings, pollute the Earth, work with terrorists, or exploit children. Microsoft isn't any different when it comes to having a willingness to break the law whenever they think they will profit from it. Just last year Microsoft was fined for illegally collecting children's personal data. Microsoft has also broken the law to sell software in violation of US sanctions. They've illegally bribed government officials. They've committed a number of anti-trust violations. In these cases breaking the law was probably still worth it for them even after the fines they were forced to pay and other slaps on the wrist they received. We have no idea how many other laws they've been breaking without being caught. For a company willing to break laws in the US and around the globe, violating a contract with Boeing is nothing, especially when the risk that Microsoft would be discovered taking advantage of the data Boeing gave them is basically zero. You could even argue that Microsoft owes it to their shareholders to exploit every possible advantage they have at their disposal to maximize profits, laws and contracts be damned. That seems to be the position many corporations take at least, and even the companies that have been caught committing the worst kinds of acts like Purdue Pharma, DuPont, or Philip Morris still exist today and seem to have no problems with sustainability. MS could even use the data they collect to help ensure that they maintain their relationship with Boeing for as long as it benefits them to.
black_puppydog 3y ago
> Companies structure their relationships with Microsoft in detailed contracts That might be so for big companies. Most smaller shops more likely just accept the (still extremely detailed) T&C's outright. That certainly structures the relationship, but I doubt there's much balancing involved. I'm thinking of e.g. the medical lab next door, the girlfriend's gynecologist, most smaller businesses really, of which there are a ton which deal with relatively sensitive customer data.
- snowwrestler 3y ago
  Yeah, Microsoft seems to have all the power when it comes to small customers. And yet their standard contracts don't say "if you give us all your data, we'll do whatever we want with it, tough shit." In fact they say pretty much the opposite of that. Isn't that interesting? Big companies like MS will apply the same business analysis to their small customer contracts as they do their big contracts--but at scale. If they decide they'll make more money by honoring all the little contracts, they will honor them. So even small customers need to understand the incentives that help that analysis come out in their favor. They tend to rely more on external incentives like criminal penalties under statutes governing fraud, personal data, medical data, etc., and the potential for negative press coverage.
j45 3y ago
I would imagine you have to be large enough for Microsoft to even entertain neogotiating with you. If the majority of businesses (and employment, and communications) are small businesses.. where does that land?

autoexec 3y ago

Contracts are great, and may even provide for some type of compensation or remedy if you know and you could prove that Microsoft was using the data they collect against their own customers, but good luck knowing/proving that. If Microsoft uses the data they have to come up with competing products, or to time the release of their competing products, or to decide which stocks to buy or short, or to decide which companies to partner with or avoid, or which of your employees they should try to attract, or even to sell or leak privileged information to your competitors you'd never know about any of that without a whistleblower at Microsoft saying something, and that person's income and very comfortable lifestyle depends on them keeping their mouth shut. A whistleblower may also risk legal consequences themself if they ever come forward. Risking themselves, their future, and their family is asking a lot which is why whistleblowers are extremely rare. That's part of the problem with surveillance capitalism. All the spying being done is to collect massive amounts of extremely valuable data, but very little of that data is used transparently. You simply can never know how the data being collected about you will be used against you, you can just be sure that it will be. The reason companies are investing huge amounts of resources into collecting, storing, and analyzing every single scrap of data they can get their hands on is because doing so is making them money hand over fist. I doesn't matter if it's your data, or your company's data, they'll be using it in any and every way possible if they even suspect that doing so will give them an advantage or make them more money and their gains will almost always be at your expense.

snowwrestler 3y ago
Let's say Boeing is a Microsoft customer. What is Microsoft going to do, read all of Boeing's emails and then start manufacturing airliners and spacecraft? I think for most companies it would not be that hard to tell if Microsoft stole their data and set up a directly competing line of business.
- lmm 3y ago
  If you can see Boeing's emails to Slack / Salesforce / AWS / ..., you know exactly what new features to build into Teams / Azure / etc., and exactly when they might be most receptive to a sales pitch. MS may not be in the aeroplane business but they're in a lot of businesses.
  - snowwrestler 3y ago
    So the idea is that MS would violate all their largest existing contracts, potentially committing criminal fraud along the way, in order to gain some marginal advantage in securing a few additional contracts later on? Does that sound like a sustainable business strategy?
    - autoexec 3y ago
      Companies routinely break laws when they think they'll increase their profits. Companies will even knowingly and willingly kill people, commit mass poisonings, pollute the Earth, work with terrorists, or exploit children. Microsoft isn't any different when it comes to having a willingness to break the law whenever they think they will profit from it. Just last year Microsoft was fined for illegally collecting children's personal data. Microsoft has also broken the law to sell software in violation of US sanctions. They've illegally bribed government officials. They've committed a number of anti-trust violations. In these cases breaking the law was probably still worth it for them even after the fines they were forced to pay and other slaps on the wrist they received. We have no idea how many other laws they've been breaking without being caught. For a company willing to break laws in the US and around the globe, violating a contract with Boeing is nothing, especially when the risk that Microsoft would be discovered taking advantage of the data Boeing gave them is basically zero. You could even argue that Microsoft owes it to their shareholders to exploit every possible advantage they have at their disposal to maximize profits, laws and contracts be damned. That seems to be the position many corporations take at least, and even the companies that have been caught committing the worst kinds of acts like Purdue Pharma, DuPont, or Philip Morris still exist today and seem to have no problems with sustainability. MS could even use the data they collect to help ensure that they maintain their relationship with Boeing for as long as it benefits them to.

black_puppydog 3y ago

> Companies structure their relationships with Microsoft in detailed contracts That might be so for big companies. Most smaller shops more likely just accept the (still extremely detailed) T&C's outright. That certainly structures the relationship, but I doubt there's much balancing involved. I'm thinking of e.g. the medical lab next door, the girlfriend's gynecologist, most smaller businesses really, of which there are a ton which deal with relatively sensitive customer data.

snowwrestler 3y ago
Yeah, Microsoft seems to have all the power when it comes to small customers. And yet their standard contracts don't say "if you give us all your data, we'll do whatever we want with it, tough shit." In fact they say pretty much the opposite of that. Isn't that interesting? Big companies like MS will apply the same business analysis to their small customer contracts as they do their big contracts--but at scale. If they decide they'll make more money by honoring all the little contracts, they will honor them. So even small customers need to understand the incentives that help that analysis come out in their favor. They tend to rely more on external incentives like criminal penalties under statutes governing fraud, personal data, medical data, etc., and the potential for negative press coverage.

j45 3y ago

I would imagine you have to be large enough for Microsoft to even entertain neogotiating with you. If the majority of businesses (and employment, and communications) are small businesses.. where does that land?