3 ms·

No I see very frequently what "these people" have as a position, you can see it all over this thread. There's no such thing as "no aging". Age is a function of

No I see very frequently what "these people" have as a position, you can see it all over this thread. There's no such thing as "no aging". Age is a function of time, you can't stop time. You can hold back on the superficial traits of age, but a human is designed with an expiration date. You can stretch it, you can also cut it short, but you won't get very different productivity in the end. But most of all. You're not special. I'm not special. Life is not special in each instance. What's special is the system, the collective result of the relentless loop of selection, evolution, adaptation. Trying to stop death is basically to stop the loop that is life. To stop death is to enforce death. I've seen few comprehend this. You see, you're linked to your environment. Cultural, physical, what have you. As you grasp to stay the same (alive) and the environment changes, you'll naturally fight to hold back the environment from changing. Which will destroy the environment for the next generations. Hence trying to stop death, causes death. It's not poetic or vague notion. But quite literal.

ben_w 3y ago
> There's no such thing as "no aging". Yeah there is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligible_senescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligible_senescence > To stop death is to enforce death. No. To stop absolutely all change is to enforce death. Aging is just one type of change amongst many that a person can experience. You may be unable to change in any way but aging, but me? I may mourn for the "meadow" that I saw being build when I was in infant school being turned into another housing estate when I was an adult, but I know that change is part of life. I moved country in my mid 30s. I've visited 21 nation states, and seen how different lives can be, and tried learning far too many natural languages. I'm a furry, so if we solve all the questions in biology (which is probably much harder than SENS, but SENS would give me time to wait), I'll see if being an actual anthropomorphic wolf suits me. I've not found the right person to start a family with yet, but I'd like to, and I hear parenthood also changes people. > As you grasp to stay the same (alive) and the environment changes, you'll naturally fight to hold back the environment from changing. Which will destroy the environment for the next generations. Non sequitur. Even the first part in isolation, "naturally" doesn't really apply any more, even if for whatever reason a biologically[0] 20-year-old mind with a century of experience is as inflexible as a natural century-old mind, rather than as flexible and open to novelty as a natural 20-year-old. Both sentences together is even worse, making you absolutely as poetic as you say you're not. [0] in this sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomarkers_of_aging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomarkers_of_aging
- 3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
  Turtles age. I find it absurd I need to state the obvious. They age and die. They live longer because of their slow metabolism and... well they don't do much. You'll find it curious I did think about turtles when writing the comment you're responding to. Can you spot the part where I thought about turtles? Something about total productive life? You know, sitting idle for months on end and staring at one point is not exactly what you envisage in your dreams of 150 year old humans or are you? If you want to see turtle-men, visit any nursery home, unfortunately. It's not a happy existence. Anyway what am I doing, explaining basics to someone who just told me they're "a furry". As I noted people who dream of immortality are either narcissists, or infantile, and I'm sorry to be blunt, but describing yourself as "a furry" strikes me as a combo of both. This is not a personal attack, but our beliefs shape our opinions, and certain extreme beliefs very much so. You can believe whatever you want to believe, beliefs are free (and most of them among humans are quite mediocre and laughable), but don't expect me to be convinced or entertain your notions.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > Can you spot the part where I thought about turtles? The picture of a turtle at the of page, and that you stopped reading before the caption that says "some"? That you definitely didn't look at any evidence linked to from it that directly contradicts your first claim? And you definitely didn't read what is currently the last sentence of the first paragraph? Which reads: """Turtles, for example, were once thought to lack senescence, but more extensive observations have found evidence of decreasing fitness with age.[2]""" Let alone the table further down? The one which says: """Maximum life span Some examples of maximum observed life span of animals thought to be negligibly senescent are: Rougheye rockfish 205 years[15][16] Aldabra giant tortoise 255 years Lobsters 100+ years (presumed)[17] Hydras Observed to be biologically immortal[18] Planaria Observed to be biologically immortal[19] Sea anemones 60–80 years (generally)[20] Red sea urchin 200 years[21] Freshwater pearl mussel 210–250 years[22][23] Ocean quahog clam 507 years[24] Greenland shark 400 years[25]""" (And just in case your eyes glazed over again: Aldabra giant tortoise: 255 years, even that list is not making the claim you're arguing against!) Also note the distinction between negligible senescence and biological immortality. > As I noted people who dream of immortality are either narcissists, or infantile, and I'm sorry to be blunt, but describing yourself as "a furry" strikes me as a combo of both. - "3cats-in-a-coat" demonstrating how to throw stones in a glass house :P Seriously though, this is all pattern matching to my earlier claim that your disgust prevented you from learning about the topic. Your claim, which was why I chose to link to the negligible senescence page, was 'There's no such thing as "no aging"'; your claim is demonstrably false even if there's only one single example (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory etc.), so even mere hydras and planaria, simple as they are, ought to change your mind if you were not simply dismissing what you don't want to be true because you don't like it.

ben_w 3y ago

> There's no such thing as "no aging". Yeah there is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligible_senescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligible_senescence > To stop death is to enforce death. No. To stop absolutely all change is to enforce death. Aging is just one type of change amongst many that a person can experience. You may be unable to change in any way but aging, but me? I may mourn for the "meadow" that I saw being build when I was in infant school being turned into another housing estate when I was an adult, but I know that change is part of life. I moved country in my mid 30s. I've visited 21 nation states, and seen how different lives can be, and tried learning far too many natural languages. I'm a furry, so if we solve all the questions in biology (which is probably much harder than SENS, but SENS would give me time to wait), I'll see if being an actual anthropomorphic wolf suits me. I've not found the right person to start a family with yet, but I'd like to, and I hear parenthood also changes people. > As you grasp to stay the same (alive) and the environment changes, you'll naturally fight to hold back the environment from changing. Which will destroy the environment for the next generations. Non sequitur. Even the first part in isolation, "naturally" doesn't really apply any more, even if for whatever reason a biologically[0] 20-year-old mind with a century of experience is as inflexible as a natural century-old mind, rather than as flexible and open to novelty as a natural 20-year-old. Both sentences together is even worse, making you absolutely as poetic as you say you're not. [0] in this sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomarkers_of_aging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomarkers_of_aging

3cats-in-a-coat 3y ago
Turtles age. I find it absurd I need to state the obvious. They age and die. They live longer because of their slow metabolism and... well they don't do much. You'll find it curious I did think about turtles when writing the comment you're responding to. Can you spot the part where I thought about turtles? Something about total productive life? You know, sitting idle for months on end and staring at one point is not exactly what you envisage in your dreams of 150 year old humans or are you? If you want to see turtle-men, visit any nursery home, unfortunately. It's not a happy existence. Anyway what am I doing, explaining basics to someone who just told me they're "a furry". As I noted people who dream of immortality are either narcissists, or infantile, and I'm sorry to be blunt, but describing yourself as "a furry" strikes me as a combo of both. This is not a personal attack, but our beliefs shape our opinions, and certain extreme beliefs very much so. You can believe whatever you want to believe, beliefs are free (and most of them among humans are quite mediocre and laughable), but don't expect me to be convinced or entertain your notions.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > Can you spot the part where I thought about turtles? The picture of a turtle at the of page, and that you stopped reading before the caption that says "some"? That you definitely didn't look at any evidence linked to from it that directly contradicts your first claim? And you definitely didn't read what is currently the last sentence of the first paragraph? Which reads: """Turtles, for example, were once thought to lack senescence, but more extensive observations have found evidence of decreasing fitness with age.[2]""" Let alone the table further down? The one which says: """Maximum life span Some examples of maximum observed life span of animals thought to be negligibly senescent are: Rougheye rockfish 205 years[15][16] Aldabra giant tortoise 255 years Lobsters 100+ years (presumed)[17] Hydras Observed to be biologically immortal[18] Planaria Observed to be biologically immortal[19] Sea anemones 60–80 years (generally)[20] Red sea urchin 200 years[21] Freshwater pearl mussel 210–250 years[22][23] Ocean quahog clam 507 years[24] Greenland shark 400 years[25]""" (And just in case your eyes glazed over again: Aldabra giant tortoise: 255 years, even that list is not making the claim you're arguing against!) Also note the distinction between negligible senescence and biological immortality. > As I noted people who dream of immortality are either narcissists, or infantile, and I'm sorry to be blunt, but describing yourself as "a furry" strikes me as a combo of both. - "3cats-in-a-coat" demonstrating how to throw stones in a glass house :P Seriously though, this is all pattern matching to my earlier claim that your disgust prevented you from learning about the topic. Your claim, which was why I chose to link to the negligible senescence page, was 'There's no such thing as "no aging"'; your claim is demonstrably false even if there's only one single example (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory etc.), so even mere hydras and planaria, simple as they are, ought to change your mind if you were not simply dismissing what you don't want to be true because you don't like it.