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We're not "stretching" anything. I made a simple assertion: business cannot be ethical, but it is inherently exploitative. I asked for examples of businesses

We're not "stretching" anything. I made a simple assertion: business cannot be ethical, but it is inherently exploitative. I asked for examples of businesses where this is not the case. Instead of examples, I got back screetching, whining and whataboutism. People would rather bury their head in the sand and think they're acting virtuously in this world. The cognitive dissonance here is frankly alarming, if it weren't so expected for entitled first-world engineers.

freedomben 3y ago
> I asked for examples of businesses where this is not the case. Instead of examples, I got back screetching, whining and whataboutism. Please, point out where I did any of that sort. And I asked for an example of a system that is more ethical, and got nothing but dodging and bitching. I don't think you have any ground to stand on to demand examples (certainly from me, who if you care to read again I'm not disputing your position that business can't be ethical, so it makes zero sense to ask me for an example). It seems unreasonable to expect of others what you aren't willing to give yourself. Dare I say that's ... unethical? If you want to complain about the real world, then offer solutions that work in the real world. We can then consider and debate them and maybe get somewhere. If you just want to make philosophical contemplations, I'm actually up for that, but not if you aren't going to even bother getting your arguments straight. You just look like a troll in that case. Actually I changed my mind. I am disputing your contention and here is my example. Please point out where the unethical parts are. Person a and person b are stranded on an island in the South Pacific. There are no other humans around. Person A gets pretty good at catching fish, while person b gets pretty good at harvesting coconuts. Individually, person a can catch six fish and harvest two coconuts. Person b can catch one fish and harvest eight coconuts. Person b is concerned about not getting enough protein, so they approach person a and offer to trade two coconuts for one fish. Person a Agrees, and a mutually agreeable business transaction has taken place. Both parties are better off than they were before. What part of this is unethical? By the way, please don't take offense by any of this. You seem to have thick enough skin to trade barbs, and honestly this has been an interesting discussion (minus some unneeded name calling but that's a minor detail between friends like us)
- forward1 3y ago
  It is telling the only example of an ethical business is a contrived hypothetical scenario entirely removed from objective reality. What makes it epically hilarious is it is also based on a completely false assertion "person b" needs protein from fish, because they cannot get it from coconut. Be sure to check the following links before you start clamoring about amino acids, too. https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170169/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170169/n... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234922/table/ttt00008/?report=objectonly https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234922/table/ttt00008/...
  - freedomben 3y ago
    It's not entirely removed from objective reality. Firstly, there is no such thing as objective reality for humans. Secondly, the principles that underpin this scenario are highly active in the world today. Things like specialization, efficiency, division of labor, etc. Not too long ago my neighbor cleaned the carburetor on my lawn mower, and I fixed his router config in exchange. He would have had to spend tons of time figuring out how to do it himself, but it took me 5 minutes. I could have cleaned my own carburetor, but he already had the cleaner and had freshly done one, so it took him 5 minutes but would have taken me 30 minutes plus a trip to the store. The same principles from the example are at play here. And whether Person B can get enough protein from coconuts is entirely irrelevant. All that matters in this scenario is that Person B was concerned about it and wanted to trade.
    - forward1 3y ago
      > Firstly, there is no such thing as objective reality for humans What? This is just silly. You don't know the difference between hypothetical fantasy and real life, or are you just being hyperbolic? > Secondly, the principles that underpin this scenario are highly active in the world today Still, it is irrelevant since I asked for a real world example. > Not too long ago my neighbor cleaned the carburetor on my lawn mower, and I fixed his router config in exchange Another contrived example which excludes the entire world. Who made the lawn mower? Who made the router? Literal slaves in a third world country. Surely you are not so ignorant you know this? > whether Person B can get enough protein from coconuts is entirely irrelevant It is not irrelevant; it is hilarious you don't know this simple nutritional fact.
therealdrag0 3y ago
Do you think you act virtuously in this world?
- forward1 3y ago
  It does not matter what I think; objectively and indisputably my existence in the world, especially in a first-world country, has an enormously negative impact on the planet. And I'm an individual with a conscience - now imagine a business with diversified shareholders!
Turing_Machine 3y ago
> I made a simple assertion: business cannot be ethical, but it is inherently exploitative. > I asked for examples of businesses where this is not the case. It doesn't work that way. You made the assertion, so the burden of proof is on you.
- forward1 3y ago
  But you only quoted the first part of my statement and not the proof, which I did state: > All business [...] relies on hiding and externalizing costs of production unto the environment, a vulnerable population, or other forms of legal/tax trickery. Are you aware of a business which does not have any externalized costs of production which have a negative impact on someone or something?
  - Turing_Machine 3y ago
    > But you only quoted the first part of my statement Yes, the part where you made the unsupported assertion. > not the proof Nonsense. Your "proof" relies on a non-standard definition which you have pulled straight out of your ass.
    - forward1 3y ago
      So you're not aware of an ethical business, and cannot provide examples here. I understand, thank you for helping me drive my point home!

freedomben 3y ago

> I asked for examples of businesses where this is not the case. Instead of examples, I got back screetching, whining and whataboutism. Please, point out where I did any of that sort. And I asked for an example of a system that is more ethical, and got nothing but dodging and bitching. I don't think you have any ground to stand on to demand examples (certainly from me, who if you care to read again I'm not disputing your position that business can't be ethical, so it makes zero sense to ask me for an example). It seems unreasonable to expect of others what you aren't willing to give yourself. Dare I say that's ... unethical? If you want to complain about the real world, then offer solutions that work in the real world. We can then consider and debate them and maybe get somewhere. If you just want to make philosophical contemplations, I'm actually up for that, but not if you aren't going to even bother getting your arguments straight. You just look like a troll in that case. Actually I changed my mind. I am disputing your contention and here is my example. Please point out where the unethical parts are. Person a and person b are stranded on an island in the South Pacific. There are no other humans around. Person A gets pretty good at catching fish, while person b gets pretty good at harvesting coconuts. Individually, person a can catch six fish and harvest two coconuts. Person b can catch one fish and harvest eight coconuts. Person b is concerned about not getting enough protein, so they approach person a and offer to trade two coconuts for one fish. Person a Agrees, and a mutually agreeable business transaction has taken place. Both parties are better off than they were before. What part of this is unethical? By the way, please don't take offense by any of this. You seem to have thick enough skin to trade barbs, and honestly this has been an interesting discussion (minus some unneeded name calling but that's a minor detail between friends like us)

forward1 3y ago
It is telling the only example of an ethical business is a contrived hypothetical scenario entirely removed from objective reality. What makes it epically hilarious is it is also based on a completely false assertion "person b" needs protein from fish, because they cannot get it from coconut. Be sure to check the following links before you start clamoring about amino acids, too. https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170169/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170169/n... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234922/table/ttt00008/?report=objectonly https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234922/table/ttt00008/...
- freedomben 3y ago
  It's not entirely removed from objective reality. Firstly, there is no such thing as objective reality for humans. Secondly, the principles that underpin this scenario are highly active in the world today. Things like specialization, efficiency, division of labor, etc. Not too long ago my neighbor cleaned the carburetor on my lawn mower, and I fixed his router config in exchange. He would have had to spend tons of time figuring out how to do it himself, but it took me 5 minutes. I could have cleaned my own carburetor, but he already had the cleaner and had freshly done one, so it took him 5 minutes but would have taken me 30 minutes plus a trip to the store. The same principles from the example are at play here. And whether Person B can get enough protein from coconuts is entirely irrelevant. All that matters in this scenario is that Person B was concerned about it and wanted to trade.
  - forward1 3y ago
    > Firstly, there is no such thing as objective reality for humans What? This is just silly. You don't know the difference between hypothetical fantasy and real life, or are you just being hyperbolic? > Secondly, the principles that underpin this scenario are highly active in the world today Still, it is irrelevant since I asked for a real world example. > Not too long ago my neighbor cleaned the carburetor on my lawn mower, and I fixed his router config in exchange Another contrived example which excludes the entire world. Who made the lawn mower? Who made the router? Literal slaves in a third world country. Surely you are not so ignorant you know this? > whether Person B can get enough protein from coconuts is entirely irrelevant It is not irrelevant; it is hilarious you don't know this simple nutritional fact.

therealdrag0 3y ago

Do you think you act virtuously in this world?

forward1 3y ago
It does not matter what I think; objectively and indisputably my existence in the world, especially in a first-world country, has an enormously negative impact on the planet. And I'm an individual with a conscience - now imagine a business with diversified shareholders!

Turing_Machine 3y ago

> I made a simple assertion: business cannot be ethical, but it is inherently exploitative. > I asked for examples of businesses where this is not the case. It doesn't work that way. You made the assertion, so the burden of proof is on you.

forward1 3y ago
But you only quoted the first part of my statement and not the proof, which I did state: > All business [...] relies on hiding and externalizing costs of production unto the environment, a vulnerable population, or other forms of legal/tax trickery. Are you aware of a business which does not have any externalized costs of production which have a negative impact on someone or something?
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  > But you only quoted the first part of my statement Yes, the part where you made the unsupported assertion. > not the proof Nonsense. Your "proof" relies on a non-standard definition which you have pulled straight out of your ass.
  - forward1 3y ago
    So you're not aware of an ethical business, and cannot provide examples here. I understand, thank you for helping me drive my point home!