4 ms·

The 'Unlimited Holiday/Vacation days' particularly bugs me. In a competitive work environment, it is not uncommon for people to go for years without taking a s

by pyoung 14y ago

The 'Unlimited Holiday/Vacation days' particularly bugs me. In a competitive work environment, it is not uncommon for people to go for years without taking a some decent time off (I did that). If it wasn't for our 'use it or lose it' policy (we are allowed to accrue up to twice our yearly amount before we get cutoff), I would probably never go on vacation. I have a feeling that people who work at companies with the unlimited policy probably take fewer vacation days than normal folks, just because no one wants to be 'that guy' who abuses the perk. Anyone have experience with it?

ben1040 14y ago
It struck me that "unlimited vacation days" also seems like a way to make sure that when people quit, you don't have to pay out a vacation dump. And if you have a team of workaholics who never take time off, then those payouts could get big. I worked for a company whose policy was to cap vacation payouts when people left. The employee handbook stated that you'd be paid a maximum of 40 hours vacation unless state law at your work location said otherwise. If you had more than 5 days vacation in your bucket, well, tough luck. Luckily I lived/worked in IL at the time I quit that job, and IL forbids this. When researching that, I noticed there's a disparity among states in terms of how vacation time is treated. Some states treat accrued vacation time as earned compensation that just hasn't yet been paid, and must be paid on termination. Other states treat vacation time as an agreement that you just don't have to come into work and you'll still get paid, and the employer is free to pay out vacation accruals however they like (or not at all). It seems like by providing no defined accruals of vacation time, you step around the whole "earned yet unpaid compensation" and turn time off into an agreement that you won't come in and they will still pay you.
jonathanwallace 14y ago
Yes, I have experience with it and due to the points you raise, we've recently switched from "unlimited vacation" to "mandatory unlimited vacation." Not taking vacation is grounds for dismissal, http://not-so-secret-sauce.highgroove.com/topics/vacation-policy.html http://not-so-secret-sauce.highgroove.com/topics/vacation-po...
- philwelch 14y ago
  At what point do you actually fire people? For instance, if they go like 18 months without vacation, do you literally fire them? Wouldn't it be easier to just grab them and say "hey, next two weeks are on the house, go have some fun and I don't want to see you come into the office or make any commits"?
  - jonathanwallace 14y ago
    Our feedback cycles are much much shorter than 18 months. It would never go that long. We have semi-annual reviews. We also have weekly 1-on-1s and one of the best portions is "what sucks?" This portion of the 1-on-1 is a time to vent about anything and everything no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. Don't like the flavor of free yogurt? Bring it up. Desirous of different snacks? Mention it. Feeling overwhelmed or burnt out? Say so. All of the what sucks from all developers is compiled into one email and sent out along with action items on each issue is being addressed. Being conscious of what is less than ideal on all levels helps us improve our working environment and our processes. We've set two large goals at our company, developer happiness and client happiness. Everyone's job is to fulfill those two goals and part of being happy is not being burnt out! By making vacation mandatory, but with no set limits, and saying you can literally be fired we're signaling to each other the relative importance of being aware of our limits and addressing the importance of moderation. Someone working 60 hours a week is indicative of a severe problem in process, planning, or execution. The same applies for someone going six months without a day off. Does that make sense?
- jbattle 14y ago
  I had to follow your link. "Mandatory unlimited vacation" sounded like a euphemism for being laid off ;)
  - jonathanwallace 14y ago
    Haha, yep. We do enjoy some tongue-in-cheek humor about it but the intent behind it is serious.

by pyoung 14y ago

ben1040 14y ago

It struck me that "unlimited vacation days" also seems like a way to make sure that when people quit, you don't have to pay out a vacation dump. And if you have a team of workaholics who never take time off, then those payouts could get big. I worked for a company whose policy was to cap vacation payouts when people left. The employee handbook stated that you'd be paid a maximum of 40 hours vacation unless state law at your work location said otherwise. If you had more than 5 days vacation in your bucket, well, tough luck. Luckily I lived/worked in IL at the time I quit that job, and IL forbids this. When researching that, I noticed there's a disparity among states in terms of how vacation time is treated. Some states treat accrued vacation time as earned compensation that just hasn't yet been paid, and must be paid on termination. Other states treat vacation time as an agreement that you just don't have to come into work and you'll still get paid, and the employer is free to pay out vacation accruals however they like (or not at all). It seems like by providing no defined accruals of vacation time, you step around the whole "earned yet unpaid compensation" and turn time off into an agreement that you won't come in and they will still pay you.

jonathanwallace 14y ago

Yes, I have experience with it and due to the points you raise, we've recently switched from "unlimited vacation" to "mandatory unlimited vacation." Not taking vacation is grounds for dismissal, http://not-so-secret-sauce.highgroove.com/topics/vacation-policy.html http://not-so-secret-sauce.highgroove.com/topics/vacation-po...

philwelch 14y ago
At what point do you actually fire people? For instance, if they go like 18 months without vacation, do you literally fire them? Wouldn't it be easier to just grab them and say "hey, next two weeks are on the house, go have some fun and I don't want to see you come into the office or make any commits"?
- jonathanwallace 14y ago
  Our feedback cycles are much much shorter than 18 months. It would never go that long. We have semi-annual reviews. We also have weekly 1-on-1s and one of the best portions is "what sucks?" This portion of the 1-on-1 is a time to vent about anything and everything no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. Don't like the flavor of free yogurt? Bring it up. Desirous of different snacks? Mention it. Feeling overwhelmed or burnt out? Say so. All of the what sucks from all developers is compiled into one email and sent out along with action items on each issue is being addressed. Being conscious of what is less than ideal on all levels helps us improve our working environment and our processes. We've set two large goals at our company, developer happiness and client happiness. Everyone's job is to fulfill those two goals and part of being happy is not being burnt out! By making vacation mandatory, but with no set limits, and saying you can literally be fired we're signaling to each other the relative importance of being aware of our limits and addressing the importance of moderation. Someone working 60 hours a week is indicative of a severe problem in process, planning, or execution. The same applies for someone going six months without a day off. Does that make sense?
jbattle 14y ago
I had to follow your link. "Mandatory unlimited vacation" sounded like a euphemism for being laid off ;)
- jonathanwallace 14y ago
  Haha, yep. We do enjoy some tongue-in-cheek humor about it but the intent behind it is serious.